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Tip Pressure-what am I missing? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Whats the down side? From whom did you hear? Racers? I know that lower level skiers disslike it because it makes them arc and they dont like that. It makes the skis clumbsy and takes away some of that livelyness thats also nice some times.
I've heard from different great skiers - Heluva actually being one of them I think.. But also heard from high level ski instructors in Austria etc.. Higher level skiers also dislike forward mounted bindings because it takes away speed, and I believe it also limits your ability to pressure the ski and go for high angle arcs.. doesn't it?
post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
I've heard from different great skiers - Heluva actually being one of them I think.. But also heard from high level ski instructors in Austria etc.. Higher level skiers also dislike forward mounted bindings because it takes away speed, and I believe it also limits your ability to pressure the ski and go for high angle arcs.. doesn't it?
Im talking about personal experiance, does that not count for anything nowadays?
post #33 of 59
People don't know what they are missing. Nearly everyone today overlooks fore and aft allignment. Such an oversight leads to the conclusion that being in proper balance requires a forward leaning stance, rather than a centered stance. The result is often having to mash the cuffs and expend energy to stay forward and get tip pressure.

With good fore/aft alingment you will not have to lean on the cuffs and throw your upper body forward to stay properly centered; a light nudge on the cuff will do and you will also be in a much better position to react to being thrown off balance and having to expend more energy to regain it.

Being too far forward and/or having too much cuff pressure also leads to being pushed into the back seat at the end of the turn; the result, again having to expend more energy to stay forward. Newton's Law - the more you push on the cuffs, the more it will push back on you. At the end of ther turn you will have to fight to stay out of the back seat.

"Forward mounted" is a relative term. What's too far forward for one may not be for another. It's not about too much or too little, but just like boots, it's about having the correct setup for your anatomy and goals - thats why they invented the Campbell balancer. One size does not fit all. Binding position does matter and it does influence the outcome. It's just that some people never tried it, others did, but not correctly and ended up mounting too far forward or back and concluded it doesnt work, and decided the manufacturers mounting point was Universal and meant for everyone. They then go on message boards and make blanket statements that tell everyone playing with binding position is worthless and only for people who are in the back seat and dont know how to get forward. Simply because a binding position didn't work for one, doesnt mean it won't work for another. Its akin to saying such and such a boot sucks because it's too stiff, too soft, or doesnt have eneough forward lean or ramp. For whom?
post #34 of 59
Forward mount is usually done for women's skis. Others prefer a forward mount due to physiological or other reasons: so their tailgunner stance is centered over the sweet spot of the ski.

Try skiing a womens ski -- I tried the Rossi Fun. You CAN'T get forward if you wanted to, there's no tip left. So you squat and roll to carve.

Unless you know much better, and I don't know how you would without video review and expert coaching, leave it alone.
post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Im talking about personal experiance, does that not count for anything nowadays?
You were talking about my personal experience with Blizzard skis? You didn't mention that it was what you were looking for I skied the Blizzard cross ski some years back - think about 4.. At that time I was 14, very little and very light.. I skied that ski which was taller than me with no problems, but I don't recall if I found them too forward mounted - I just wanted to ski at that time Blizzard skis are cheaper than Atomic or Fischer skis, maybe I'll go demo some and see how they feel
post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Forward mount is usually done for women's skis. Others prefer a forward mount due to physiological or other reasons: so their tailgunner stance is centered over the sweet spot of the ski.

Try skiing a womens ski -- I tried the Rossi Fun. You CAN'T get forward if you wanted to, there's no tip left. So you squat and roll to carve.

Unless you know much better, and I don't know how you would without video review and expert coaching, leave it alone.
Great post!
post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
People don't know what they are missing. Nearly everyone today overlooks fore and aft allignment. Such an oversight leads to the conclusion that being in proper balance requires a forward leaning stance, rather than a centered stance. The result is often having to mash the cuffs and expend energy to stay forward and get tip pressure.

With good fore/aft alingment you will not have to lean on the cuffs and throw your upper body forward to stay properly centered; a light nudge on the cuff will do and you will also be in a much better position to react to being thrown off balance and having to expend more energy to regain it.
And what about binding ramp angle? Should'nt that be addressed first?

I'd think so.
post #38 of 59
I have the Blizzard Mag SL. I moved my bindings back. Easy to do thanks to the VIST Speedlock plate. The skis are actually lying against a wall right now waiting for a Marker WC Piston Plate though.

Anyway, does this help the OP?

Richard, I think probably the missing element is Edging. If you edge it more, maybe it won't skid. Who knows though? It would be nice to see in person or at least some vid. Also, there's the whole timing, intensity, duration thing. When do you pressure the tip, how hard, and for how long?
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Forward mount is usually done for women's skis. Others prefer a forward mount due to physiological or other reasons: so their tailgunner stance is centered over the sweet spot of the ski.

Try skiing a womens ski -- I tried the Rossi Fun. You CAN'T get forward if you wanted to, there's no tip left. So you squat and roll to carve.

Unless you know much better, and I don't know how you would without video review and expert coaching, leave it alone.
What is a forward mount? That's like saying I live in the North. North of what? Forward for one person may be too aft for another. There is no Universal. The manufactuer mounting point is just a guestimate, an approximation that takes into account the average weight, height, and skier ability, ski flex, etc.
post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
And what about binding ramp angle? Should'nt that be addressed first?

I'd think so.
Yes, the boots come first obviously. One of the reasons most reputable fitters ask you to bring the skis in with you is so they can check fore and aft alingment with the boot/binding combo.
post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
People don't know what they are missing. Nearly everyone today overlooks fore and aft allignment. Such an oversight leads to the conclusion that being in proper balance requires a forward leaning stance, rather than a centered stance. The result is often having to mash the cuffs and expend energy to stay forward and get tip pressure.

With good fore/aft alingment you will not have to lean on the cuffs and throw your upper body forward to stay properly centered; a light nudge on the cuff will do and you will also be in a much better position to react to being thrown off balance and having to expend more energy to regain it.

Being too far forward and/or having too much cuff pressure also leads to being pushed into the back seat at the end of the turn; the result, again having to expend more energy to stay forward. Newton's Law - the more you push on the cuffs, the more it will push back on you. At the end of ther turn you will have to fight to stay out of the back seat.

"Forward mounted" is a relative term. What's too far forward for one may not be for another. It's not about too much or too little, but just like boots, it's about having the correct setup for your anatomy and goals - thats why they invented the Campbell balancer. One size does not fit all. Binding position does matter and it does influence the outcome. It's just that some people never tried it, others did, but not correctly and ended up mounting too far forward or back and concluded it doesnt work, and decided the manufacturers mounting point was Universal and meant for everyone. They then go on message boards and make blanket statements that tell everyone playing with binding position is worthless and only for people who are in the back seat and dont know how to get forward. Simply because a binding position didn't work for one, doesnt mean it won't work for another. Its akin to saying such and such a boot sucks because it's too stiff, too soft, or doesnt have eneough forward lean or ramp. For whom?
Excellent post. Skis are not designed so that there is a specific place to place the boot. The center mark is allways put on the ski by test skiers, experiance or from a hunch. Most of the posters in this thread writing about this issue think that the centermark is neutral. Anything forward of that is forward and everything aft is aft. It doesnt work that way. The centermark could be for or aft and mooving the boot 10mm forward does not mean its even centered yet. Stand height, ramp angle, for aft placement and canting are all variables we can play with. I have about 50mm stand height, 3-0 ramp, boot 10mm aft of BoF mark and 3deg canting. 99% of advanced skiers have no clue of any of these variables. Not even FIS or Eurocup and probably not even WC skiers... heck some of them are 15-17y old!
post #42 of 59
I think you have to consider the specific design of ski--that is where the side cut is in relation to the suggested binding position. If a ski is specifically designed for an aft binding mount, very likely the sidecut assumes that binding position. If you move the bindings too far forward, very likely you will be changing the turning characteristics of the ski for the worse.

There is no right answer--its all about trade-offs. A short tailed ski will likely turn extremely tightly but will require being agressively forward all the time. A more center mounted ski may turn just as quickly, but it will require more fore and aft adjustments to fully exploit.

I think the key point is that the ski needs to be matched to the skier. For a finesse skier who doesn't want to (or doesn't have the skills) to be agressively forward all the time, the answer is to buy a ski that has a more central suggested binding mount. That puts them on a ski designed to perform they way they are going to ski it. While defanging an aft mounted ski by moving the bindings forward may make it manageable for the skier, doing so makes no sense because the ski is no longer being skied the way it was designed. IOW, why would you buy a ski if you didn't like the way it was supposed to ski? Other than the way cool graphics of course

BTW, more edging will not generally make the tails hold. If you add edge forward, you do increase the edge angle, but you also wrap the ski into a tighter turn. That changes the resulting force vector (more centrifugal force) so likely, the critical edge angle at the tails remains the same (or is even reduced) relative to the new force vector and you are still slipping. Moving aft is the only sure fire way to stop the tails from washing out (assuming you have enough torsional stiffness and edge penetration that your ski *should* hold). Thus saith Ron LeMaster--though I can tell you from experience that he is correct.
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
What is a forward mount? That's like saying I live in the North. North of what? Forward for one person may be too aft for another. There is no Universal. The manufactuer mounting point is just a guestimate, an approximation that takes into account the average weight, height, and skier ability, ski flex, etc.
Yes. But some manufacturers just mount more forward than "standard" - standard being how most other skis are mounted..
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Excellent post. Skis are not designed so that there is a specific place to place the boot. The center mark is allways put on the ski by test skiers, experiance or from a hunch. Most of the posters in this thread writing about this issue think that the centermark is neutral. Anything forward of that is forward and everything aft is aft. It doesnt work that way. The centermark could be for or aft and mooving the boot 10mm forward does not mean its even centered yet. Stand height, ramp angle, for aft placement and canting are all variables we can play with. I have about 50mm stand height, 3-0 ramp, boot 10mm aft of BoF mark and 3deg canting. 99% of advanced skiers have no clue of any of these variables. Not even FIS or Eurocup and probably not even WC skiers... heck some of them are 15-17y old!
As someone who has a lot of flexion, I prefer a shallow ramp angle and plenty of forward lean. For frontside I also usually have the bindings mounted anywhere from 20-40mm in front of the Manufacturer mark on the skis - especially Head and Atomic. After I was 'Campbell' balanced I found I was no longer having to constantly lean on the cuffs to be centered and get tip pressure. The improved fluidity and less muscle and energy expenditure in staying forward was night and day. Had nothing to do with being in the backseat; rather it was about the ease of pressure management given my range of flexion.
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Excellent post. Skis are not designed so that there is a specific place to place the boot. The center mark is allways put on the ski by test skiers, experiance or from a hunch. Most of the posters in this thread writing about this issue think that the centermark is neutral. Anything forward of that is forward and everything aft is aft. It doesnt work that way. The centermark could be for or aft and mooving the boot 10mm forward does not mean its even centered yet. Stand height, ramp angle, for aft placement and canting are all variables we can play with. I have about 50mm stand height, 3-0 ramp, boot 10mm aft of BoF mark and 3deg canting. 99% of advanced skiers have no clue of any of these variables. Not even FIS or Eurocup and probably not even WC skiers... heck some of them are 15-17y old!
Only thing I didn't get is that 3-0 ramp thing, and I'm 18y and not a FIS or WC skier.. Don't they have some kind of skiing theory at ski camps etc.?
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Yes. But some manufacturers just mount more forward than "standard" - standard being how most other skis are mounted..
I understand. I aggree some of the Blizzard mounts are probably too forward for some skiers. I was just saying there is no unversal one-sze-fits-ll. IMO one of the reasons so many skiers cant ever get out of the back seat is because of improper fore and aft alignment. They find they have to expend so much energy to stay forward(e.g. centered) and they tire quickly; they then assume one was not meant to ski centered and stay on the tail where it is easy. When you are properly balanced, forward really means forward, not centered. One shouldnt have to mash the cuffs or throw the upper body over the front of the skis to stay centered. If one does, I believe a visit to the fitter for a binding check and balance is in order.
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
As someone who has a lot of flexion, I prefer a shallow ramp angle and plenty of forward lean. For frontside I also usually have the bindings mounted anywhere from 20-40mm in front of the Manufacturer mark on the skis - especially Head and Atomic. After I was 'Campbell' balanced I found I was no longer having to constantly lean on the cuffs to be centered and get tip pressure. The improved fluidity and less muscle and energy expenditure in staying forward was night and day. Had nothing to do with being in the backseat; rather it was about the ease of pressure management given my range of flexion.
But didn't you have to give up some of the control of the ski + balance + having more trouble absorbing bumps and stuff like that?
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
But didn't you have to give up some of the control of the ski + balance + having more trouble absorbing bumps and stuff like that?
Actually, not at all. In fact, bumps became easier due to not having to expend muscle energy staying forward and centered. Probably the first time I ever felt solid in the bumps was after Campbell balancing years ago. With a more forward binding position there is a slight trade-off in overall stability at speed, but not enough to negate the advantages IMO. Again, everyone is unique and has different anatomy and different experiences. There are no universals and there is no way to state that something will or will not work for one person or the other.

Obviously a more 'forward' position can get a little crazy in the crud or powder at speed, but that's what Tyrolia raifllex bindings are for. I just back it off.
post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
I've heard a lot of guys complain that Blizzard was mounted too much forward..
I may have been one of them.
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Excellent post. Skis are not designed so that there is a specific place to place the boot. The center mark is allways put on the ski by test skiers, experiance or from a hunch. Most of the posters in this thread writing about this issue think that the centermark is neutral. Anything forward of that is forward and everything aft is aft. It doesnt work that way. The centermark could be for or aft and mooving the boot 10mm forward does not mean its even centered yet. Stand height, ramp angle, for aft placement and canting are all variables we can play with. I have about 50mm stand height, 3-0 ramp, boot 10mm aft of BoF mark and 3deg canting. 99% of advanced skiers have no clue of any of these variables. Not even FIS or Eurocup and probably not even WC skiers... heck some of them are 15-17y old!

I think there are too many blanket statements and lack of info out there. In fact, I have talked to cert level II and III on this this subject and was shocked as some acted like being properly balanced fore and aft with bindings was something exotic, superfluous, and hoaky - a second thought type of thing. It is unbelievable how many experienced and skilled skiers think balancing is something that is not worth the effort to even consider. They will spend a thousand bucks on correct lateral allignment but wont spend a few minutes on getting properly set up on the fore and aft plane. The reason I think is that so many skiers have spent their whole careers this way they have learned to adjust to compensate for anything out of whack in this plane and treat being 'forward' as the norm. The goal is to be centered - bheing properly balanced means being centered without having to constantly be 'forward' over the front.
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Only thing I didn't get is that 3-0 ramp thing, and I'm 18y and not a FIS or WC skier.. Don't they have some kind of skiing theory at ski camps etc.?
Ramp is the difference in standheight between toe and heel. Im levelled to 3mm up on my heel. Some even have their toes higher, like Helluva. Sounds a lot more radical than tuning the for aft alignment to center according to Ball Of Foot consept.

Thanks MojoMan for great input. I did all this by myselfe after reading about the campbell method.

Disclaimer, forwards of the center mark on skis doesent mean as forwards as twin tip skis are nowadays.
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoMan View Post
Actually, not at all. In fact, bumps became easier due to not having to expend muscle energy staying forward and centered. Probably the first time I ever felt solid in the bumps was after Campbell balancing years ago. With a more forward binding position there is a slight trade-off in overall stability at speed, but not enough to negate the advantages IMO. Again, everyone is unique and has different anatomy and different experiences. There are no universals and there is no way to state that something will or will not work for one person or the other.

Obviously a more 'forward' position can get a little crazy in the crud or powder at speed, but that's what Tyrolia raifllex bindings are for. I just back it off.
I was more thinking bumps on piste and sudden other unpredictable oddities on piste.. The more I flex my boots the more I am in control of my skis and the more I am able to let my hip (arse) go lower (absorb) when hitting something - without going to backseat that is..

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
I may have been one of them.
You should have read my next post
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Ramp is the difference in standheight between toe and heel. Im levelled to 3mm up on my heel. Some even have their toes higher, like Helluva. Sounds a lot more radical than tuning the for aft alignment to center according to Ball Of Foot consept.

Thanks MojoMan for great input. I did all this by myselfe after reading about the campbell method.

Disclaimer, forwards of the center mark on skis doesent mean as forwards as twin tip skis are nowadays.
Having your toe higher than your heel is just a more radical type of "forward lean" - if maximum forward lean isn't enough you can have your ankles flexed even more by this..
post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Only thing I didn't get is that 3-0 ramp thing, and I'm 18y and not a FIS or WC skier.. Don't they have some kind of skiing theory at ski camps etc.?
You would be surpriced how little they know and how much you know from only reading this thread. I sat in the same car as some FIS racers (15y-20y) and I had a hard time getting a discussion going on gear. They hardly even knew how long their skis were not to talk about stand height. For some its just skiing and for some its just a job; be it skier, coach or tech. Guys like Schumacher and Häkkinen did a great job of taking part in testing and designing the cars while other guys just drive. Same in skiing, same in any sport or job.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
You would be surpriced how little they know and how much you know from only reading this thread.
How can you know that I got my knowledge from this thread? - not true..
post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
I was more thinking bumps on piste and sudden other unpredictable oddities on piste.. The more I flex my boots the more I am in control of my skis and the more I am able to let my hip (arse) go lower (absorb) when hitting something - without going to backseat that is..



You should have read my next post
Obviously, the more centered you are, the better command you have over pressure management on all fronts, but you also will absorb bumps and oddities much better.

The question here is, how is this centering achieved, and how does this relate to, or effect other dynamics? If you are truly balacned and able to be centered in boot, binding, and ski, you will not have to exert as much energy and functional tension in controling your skis. You also will be in a much better position to absorb terrain variations and compromises in balance.

If, to stay centered, one has to constantly stay 'forward' with the upper body extended over the tips or leaning on the cuffs, this puts you at a marked disadvantage when it comes to absorbing terrain variations and compromises in balance. You will get forced back as the skis transmit the force to the cuff, which you are either leaning on or hanging out over. The result is more wasted energy, exertion, and fatigue. Note that here, there is a difference between shin pressure and mashing or leaning. Shin pressure is important, but if one is truly centered to begin with, absorbtion is not only easier, but more efficient. Hanging out over the tips works, but IMO it is neither efficient nor optimal, and can also lead to skidding the tails, not to mention always getting pushed back at the end of the turn.

Basically, a skilled skier can make adjustments to ski with any binding position he/she chooses. The fact is, though, the chosen position may not be the most optimal or efficient way to go about it. Efficient skiing involves elliminating unwanted or unneeded movements. It pays to realise when a change in equipment can help accomodate this. It can make it so much easier by elimiating things such as having to always drive the upper body over the tips.
post #57 of 59
While fore/aft placement of the binding can make a difference it doesn't do anything to address the skier's stance which is quite commonly biased aft. The fore/aft movement of the binding is done to allow for difference in physiology rather than correcting for a poor stance.
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
While fore/aft placement of the binding can make a difference it doesn't do anything to address the skier's stance which is quite commonly biased aft.
My experiences are otherwise in many instances. One - A couple of summer's ago, a high level JIII was moving to an adult GS ski. She was collapsed at the waist and correspondingly rolling her hips, blah, blah - her skiing had dramatically regressed... anyway, moved her bindings forward and her stance and posture improved immediately.

With my own skis I can attest to anecdotal evidence that binding placement can and does affect balance and stance. No question.
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
My experiences are otherwise in many instances. One - A couple of summer's ago, a high level JIII was moving to an adult GS ski. She was collapsed at the waist and correspondingly rolling her hips, blah, blah - her skiing had dramatically regressed... anyway, moved her bindings forward and her stance and posture improved immediately.
My guess would be that the skier above already had a good non-aft biased stance on the old skis and was bending at the waist in an effort to get more pressure to the forebody of the new GS skis which she couldn't do via simple hip movement due to her size. So sure, in that case it will make a definite positive difference. But if she was a typical back seat skier the binding adjustment wouldn't address the stance issue at all.
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