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Turn entry

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
This is a spinn off from annother thread that got a bit sidetracked....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
NO.

A pivot entry turn is used to describe an arc'd turn that begins with a pivot entry.

Yes it does matter that we do not skid the lower part of the turn. If you skid the lower part of the turn too, that is called "basic parallel".

I already defined a pivot. You must be confusing pivot and redirection.

They are different. Redirection is one possible outcome of a pivot.
Ok, let me try to figure this out......

Entry
1. pivot
2. arc

Apex
1. skid
2. arc

End
1. skid
2 arc

Basic Parallel turn: 111
Arced turn: 222
Pivot entry: 122

Please feel free to correct and expand my above consept.

You are saying that a basic parallel turn begins with a pivot? But a basic skidded turn does not! IMO they both begin with a pivot! Are you saying that the outcome of a pivot is not allways redirection and can therefore not be used to describe a normal skidded turn? But why do you describe a basic parallel turn in such way. A bit confusing but Im sure we will be able to explain it so that even I can understand it.

Is the pivot entry turn allways without redirection?

Any other ways of entering a turn? Jumping would be one, any other methods?
post #2 of 14
Early parallel turns begin with skidding . Then we add more edging as we get them comfortable with new movements.

Wasn't Big E's post about a pivoted entry carved turn ? Using a pivot to change your line

So aren't we talking about rate of pivot duration. Early parallel being a slow pivot and a pivot entry being much more precise in it rate and duration.

We teach them to smear before we teach them to carve.

A pivot has less skidding in it's rotation but a skidded turn has a slower rate of pivoting

Other ways. One ski flatter than another. One ski enters (new inside)into a carve before the other.

Ok Big E What think do you ?
post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
My question was if the word "pivot" was exclusively ment to be used with "pivot entry" turns and if "pivot entry turns" were exclusively ment to be used if turn ends up in arcing.

IMO you can eather turn a ski by tipping it and wait for the sidecut to start turning = arcing (carving) or (think rear weel drive cars) pivot and tip your skis onto their edges so that they start to skid resulting in them wanting to turn. There are several ways of pivotting the skis... anybody care to list as many as you can think of?
post #4 of 14
TDK is correct, it is 122.

Yes GarryZ the entry to the carve is pivotted.

I don't understand this:

GarryZ: "A pivot has less skidding in it's rotation but a skidded turn has a slower rate of pivoting"

A pivot can be done 90 degrees to the direction of travel. There is TONS of skidding going on. (Bode at Solden comes to mind.)

A skidded turn will certainly have a slower rate of pivotting.

I suppose that one could argue that a pivot entry turn could be a turn that starts with much pivoting, prior to the skis being tipped and pressured. Then, whether or not they carve is irrelevant, since a tipped and pressured ski will turn.

However, in my use of the term, a pivot entry turn requires that the skis are pivoted prior to a carve; they are tipped and pressured in such a manner that the skis will arc.
post #5 of 14
Changing edges without redirecting the skis so that the skis first engage their edges and then turn via sidecut and edge/pressure can produce a carved turn entry. A carved turn continues with the ski bowed into reverse cambered so that the whole edge passes thru the same groove in the snow. The narrower the width of groove, the more carved the turn. Carved turns control direction well, but depend on line to control speed.

Flattening the skis and using gross pivoting to redirect tips and displace the tails to engage the edges would yield a skidded turn entry. The track looks like a cresent moon showing the ski tails displacing a lot more than the tips at start of turn. Difficult for most skiers to manage the turn back toward carving. Skidded turns control speed, but not direction very effectively. Increasing edging until the skid is arrested is not carving.

Progressively edging first (but not a excessively) and applying a blend of edge/pressure and rotary (not gross pivoting) can produce a scarved, or drifted carve turn. This track is of uniform width throughout the turn showing tip and tail displacing at the same rate. This type of skill blend can be easily adjusted to get varied turn shapes and/or to produce either a more carved, or more skidded turn. Provides balance of control of both speed and direction.
post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
TDK is correct, it is 122.

Yes GarryZ the entry to the carve is pivotted.

I don't understand this:

GarryZ: "A pivot has less skidding in it's rotation but a skidded turn has a slower rate of pivoting"
Maybe I worded it unclearly. Is that a word ? What I was getting to is a pivot to a redirection is a precise move with a very contro0lled beginning and finish . A skidded turn is much less precise and it's use is a early parallel turn before it gets modified into a carved turn later in a parallel progression and a technique that is a less precise means of adapting to terrain or turn shape.

Both have similarities but the intentions or design of each is much different.
post #7 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
A skidded turn is much less precise and it's use is a early parallel turn before it gets modified into a carved turn later in a parallel progression.
I have to ask!

Can you give and example of a progression that could be used to turn a skidded basic parallel turn into a carved turn?

So far, it seems that the only thing people are suggesting here is to adopt a trademarked approach.

To me, that is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There must be some other options!
post #8 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I have to ask!

Can you give and example of a progression that could be used to turn a skidded basic parallel turn into a carved turn?

So far, it seems that the only thing people are suggesting here is to adopt a trademarked approach.

To me, that is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There must be some other options!
It doesn't get modified itself but it is easier to get them turning in a skid before they can carve . They will have to learn more use of edging and pressure but can get around very well in a skidded turn until they can.

Don't we work our progressions step by step to lead them into using all forms of edging ? Slipped ,skidded,pivoted or carved ? I do . They must learn to make use of their edges but skid before they can carve
post #9 of 14
Most basic parallel progressions that I know begin with the patience turn, ie. let your skis seek the fall-line. They then add edging and/or inside leg flexion, angulation, and finally counter to help "resist the twist".

This is then re-worked with a carved turn entry ie. early edge engagement. Finally we use a pivot entry (with Upper/Lower body separation) to create the pivot entry turn.

Sure, you can start with a patience turn and immediately use the pivot entry, but the issue then is adding the carve onto the mad rotation happening in the turn. This is much harder when you don't have a handle on creating the carve already.

Obviously, there won't be much pivotting in the early stages of the pivot entry turn -- it takes a while to figure out just how to initiate the carve. But that's ok! You'll be teaching on a green or light blue anyway, so you won't need a ton of redirection, and it'll be a mistake to go to 90 degrees on the low slopes. You'll get to use more pivotting as the going gets steeper, and it'll get easier, since gravity will have more of an effect.
post #10 of 14
I seem to be getting pretty famous around Internet Forum Land for my supposed advocacy of pivoting, so I guess I'll chime in here as the widely proclaimed expert. :

Since way back when, I've distinguished and taught pivoting as an unweighted manual redirection of the skis,,, steering as a weighted manual turning/twisting of the skis,,, and carving (synonymous with arcing) as using the sidecut to turn with no supplemental rotary ski twisting.

By those definitions, a turn can be:

- Totally carved
- Totally steered
- Started with a steer and finished with a carve
- Started with a pivot and finished with a carve
- Started with a pivot and finished with a steer
- Started with a carve and finished with a steer
- And a vast array of other combinations, limited mostly by ability and imagination
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I seem to be getting pretty famous around Internet Forum Land for my supposed advocacy of pivoting...
Hmmm ...sounds like a bit of selective reading taking place
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Hmmm ...sounds like a bit of selective reading taking place
Yeah, some things do jump out at ya. In a pathetically comical sort of way.
post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I seem to be getting pretty famous around Internet Forum Land for my supposed advocacy of pivoting, so I guess I'll chime in here as the widely proclaimed expert. :

Since way back when, I've distinguished and taught pivoting as an unweighted manual redirection of the skis,,, steering as a weighted manual turning/twisting of the skis,,, and carving (synonymous with arcing) as using the sidecut to turn with no supplemental rotary ski twisting.

By those definitions, a turn can be:

- Totally carved
- Totally steered
- Started with a steer and finished with a carve
- Started with a pivot and finished with a carve
- Started with a pivot and finished with a steer
- Started with a carve and finished with a steer
- And a vast array of other combinations, limited mostly by ability and imagination
What exactly is the difference between a pivotting and stearing?
post #14 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What exactly is the difference between a pivotting and stearing?
From definitions that go way back: pivoting is an unweighted manual redirection of the skis,,, steering is a weighted manual redirection of the skis.

In racing, and in compliance with those definitions: pivoting is the desired means of manual redirection at turn entry. Doing it via power steering is slow because is introduces sustained drag (speed dumping) that is not present in pivoting.

In free skiing, where speed dumping to accompany rapid redirection may be desired, a power steered redirection at turn entry is fine.
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