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Pivot, carve, arc...what the??

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I go to the mountain and ski, I try to do the best I can and try to keep my turns clean with little skidding when I can open it up, and do read a lot of the advice given here from instructors and former racers. But to be honest I really don't know what is meant by a pivot turn, as opposed to a carved turn, or arched turn. I'm sure I am not alone.

Just how many turns are there and what do they mean, perhaps a photo illustration might help as well. Thx.
post #2 of 17
carve = arc = lay your skis over on their edges and lay down railroad tracks with no skidding
pivot = twist your legs to steer the skis left or right without engaging the edges.
post #3 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by epl View Post
carve = arc = lay your skis over on their edges and lay down railroad tracks with no skidding
pivot = twist your legs to steer the skis left or right without engaging the edges.
Think of these as two ends of a line. In between there is a whole range of edge engagements that don't exactly leave RR tracks, but aren't a huge skid either.
post #4 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
I go to the mountain and ski, I try to do the best I can and try to keep my turns clean with little skidding when I can open it up, and do read a lot of the advice given here from instructors and former racers. But to be honest I really don't know what is meant by a pivot turn, as opposed to a carved turn, or arched turn. I'm sure I am not alone.

Just how many turns are there and what do they mean, perhaps a photo illustration might help as well. Thx.
I look at it this way there are 2 ways to turn 1: tip the skis on edge, 2: twist the legs. If you can tip to edge before applying any twist you will have a cleaner engagement of your skis thru out the turn. If you twist 1st then try to tip and engage edges the turn gets more smeared out. But like Kneale said there is a whole range between the 2 extremes. Play around on some gentle terrain with pure tipping i.e R.R. tracks, try some pure rotary ( no edge engagement) you should be doing 360 degree flat spins on the snow.
post #5 of 17
pivot turn is what phat skiers do
carve turn is what slim skiers do
post #6 of 17
I feel your pain Richie-Rich. None of the previous descriptions match my definition of carved vs pivotted (epl comes close). IMO a carved turn is when the skis run along their edges leaving clean rr-trax behind. This you achieve by tipping your skis onto their edges and wait for the skis to lead the way. Pivotted turns are the ones where your skis dont run along their edges leaving rr-trax behind. Your tip and tail are displaced and turning at a different radius. I dont like when people say that no edges are used because the edges play a huge role in pivotted turns as well. In all skiing your edges are your # 1 tool. In wedging for instance. Your edges are scraping the snow, not cutting the surface in two.

But some call evenly skidded turns carved and by skidded turns they mean wind shield wiper turns. RR-trax are left behind by arcing. I use the word skidd but others use pivotted. Then we have scarved which is a mixt between carving and skidding and then we have drifted and brushed which are all basicly skidded or pivotted. Its a mess I know. Here are a couple of consepts I can think of:

Consept 1 (KISS consept)
carve (rr-tracks) - skidd (everything else)

Consept 2
arc (rr-tracks) - carve (evenly skidded turns) - skidd (wind shield wiper turns)

Consept 3
arc - carve - scarve - brush - drift - pivot - skidd

etc.

I can put up a video if you like where I skidd and then carve.
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
I go to the mountain and ski, I try to do the best I can and try to keep my turns clean with little skidding when I can open it up, and do read a lot of the advice given here from instructors and former racers. But to be honest I really don't know what is meant by a pivot turn, as opposed to a carved turn, or arched turn. I'm sure I am not alone.

Just how many turns are there and what do they mean, perhaps a photo illustration might help as well. Thx.
:shameless plug:

you need (not should---or perhaps---I really mean you need to) to attend a high quality instruction event -- like an EpicSki instruction event---either a weekender like Stowe in December or one of the 4 day events like Aspen.

Even (gasp) an HH camp would be beneficial as would (probably) any of the higher end multi day camps. I know first hand that an Epic event would be well worth your time:

my $.02
post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I feel your pain Richie-Rich. None of the previous descriptions match my definition of carved vs pivotted (epl comes close). IMO a carved turn is when the skis run along their edges leaving clean rr-trax behind. This you achieve by tipping your skis onto their edges and wait for the skis to lead the way. Pivotted turns are the ones where your skis dont run along their edges leaving rr-trax behind. Your tip and tail are displaced and turning at a different radius. I dont like when people say that no edges are used because the edges play a huge role in pivotted turns as well. In all skiing your edges are your # 1 tool. In wedging for instance. Your edges are scraping the snow, not cutting the surface in two.

But some call evenly skidded turns carved and by skidded turns they mean wind shield wiper turns. RR-trax are left behind by arcing. I use the word skidd but others use pivotted. Then we have scarved which is a mixt between carving and skidding and then we have drifted and brushed which are all basicly skidded or pivotted. Its a mess I know. Here are a couple of consepts I can think of:

Consept 1 (KISS consept)
carve (rr-tracks) - skidd (everything else)

Consept 2
arc (rr-tracks) - carve (evenly skidded turns) - skidd (wind shield wiper turns)

Consept 3
arc - carve - scarve - brush - drift - pivot - skidd

etc.

I can put up a video if you like where I skidd and then carve.
Excellent, this is what I thought but was not sure. So many terms to mean the same thing! Thank you.
post #9 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
Excellent, this is what I thought but was not sure. So many terms to mean the same thing! Thank you.
My pleasure
post #10 of 17
Last sunday I had a lesson with an instructor who came from France. What she asked me to do is: don't always lock on edge, don't skid, let the ski slide and make a round turn. That's pretty helpful, since I'm on 176 Elan 777 and we're doing short turns on relative steeps.
post #11 of 17

Skid /slide?

"don't skid, let the ski slide"

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Doing very short radius turns to control decent on a super steep pitch is diff than carving.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
Last sunday I had a lesson with an instructor who came from France. What she asked me to do is: don't always lock on edge, don't skid, let the ski slide and make a round turn. That's pretty helpful, since I'm on 176 Elan 777 and we're doing short turns on relative steeps.
What Racer256 said! But I see the dilemma.... 176cm skis on steeps and locked onto their edges arcing is bound to get you or somebody else killed. You are the exact opposite of Dr Rick in annother thread learning how to carve. You should learn how to skidd. Or at least know when to skidd... anything steeper than "relative flat" is too much pitch for lower level proper arcing.
post #13 of 17
I had a trainer describe something else related, that is the difference between a skidded turn and a checked turn.

A checked turn is kind of like linked hockey stops. Used in steep terrain and at times in bumps.

So he actually used three basic turn types.
Carved turns
Skidded turns
Checked turns
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer256 View Post
"don't skid, let the ski slide"

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Doing very short radius turns to control decent on a super steep pitch is diff than carving.
Sorry if there's any misleading. Both she and me are not so good to use English very accurately, while "slide" was exact the word she used, and it's difinitely different in meaning as "carve" or "skid". I was confused too at that moment, but now I think what she meant was something like "controlled brushed turn", "scarving" or what else talked here. She didn't want to see me skidding at the bottom of turn, which means skis moving laterally down the hill while pointed across the slope. She wanted me to make the skis always sliding forward but not lock on edges. She's not the first instructor told us don't always lock on edge. The edge helps to lead the turn, and grips the snow progressively, while the skis may still pivot along the movement and not always arc on the radius of sidecut.

It's maybe something similiar as SMJ said a checked turn, but don't stop (or try to stop) at the bottom. And TDK is right, learn to skid is as important as learn to carve, if anything other than carving is skidding.

Hope I have make my point clearer.
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
I had a trainer describe something else related, that is the difference between a skidded turn and a checked turn.

A checked turn is kind of like linked hockey stops. Used in steep terrain and at times in bumps.

So he actually used three basic turn types.
Carved turns
Skidded turns
Checked turns
Sort of like a fish hook turn!
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
Sorry if there's any misleading. Both she and me are not so good to use English very accurately, while "slide" was exact the word she used, and it's difinitely different in meaning as "carve" or "skid". I was confused too at that moment, but now I think what she meant was something like "controlled brushed turn", "scarving" or what else talked here. She didn't want to see me skidding at the bottom of turn, which means skis moving laterally down the hill while pointed across the slope. She wanted me to make the skis always sliding forward but not lock on edges. She's not the first instructor told us don't always lock on edge. The edge helps to lead the turn, and grips the snow progressively, while the skis may still pivot along the movement and not always arc on the radius of sidecut.

It's maybe something similiar as SMJ said a checked turn, but don't stop (or try to stop) at the bottom. And TDK is right, learn to skid is as important as learn to carve, if anything other than carving is skidding.

Hope I have make my point clearer.
You have made your point clear to me. The turn shape of a proper turn should allways be similair. Carved, arced, skidded, brushed, drifted, scarved, wedged, stemmed, tipped, pivotted, up-unweighted, down-unweighted, releced, controlled, short, long, medium you name it... allways with gradual edge engagement early in the high C and evenly rounded through out the whole turn.
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
You have made your point clear to me. The turn shape of a proper turn should allways be similair. Carved, arced, skidded, brushed, drifted, scarved, wedged, stemmed, tipped, pivotted, up-unweighted, down-unweighted, releced, controlled, short, long, medium you name it... allways with gradual edge engagement early in the high C and evenly rounded through out the whole turn.
What a glossary, thanks! :
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