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Here is a kickass video from Alpine Canada...7 yrs, 11 yrs...?? - Page 2

post #31 of 61
..... do I dare?..... I know I shouldn't.... but it's just too obvious... gee, can't they see it... no, don't get involved... let them duke it out themselves... but they are missing the point.... should I?....

OK, against my own better judgement, I'm going to stick my .02 cents in here.

DING!!!! Both Max and Rusty- go to your corners!

Let's first of all identify that what those kids were doing were not pivot slips... at least not by the definition we happen to use in RM. But what they were doing was a simple drill which accentuated upper /lower body separation.
Again review what the intent of this video was- as already noted, it is a PROGRESSION which introduces the subskill sets necessary for cross blocking in a SL course. As the aforementioned u/l body separation happens to be a requirement for the radius and tempo of the turns being made in the video, I would have been suprised to NOT see something of this sort in it.

Was the femoral pivot happening to the same degree? Kind of obvious, isn't it? Not as fast, not as dramatic, not as visible. But enough to satisfy the need for a stable torso.

What I thought was wicked cool was the exercise where they pivoted/skidded, and then engaged the edge! Nice segue into the slivot turn entry!

But from there on, the video was extremely consistent with the same drills which have been around since the inception of the breakaway gate. Brushes, stubbies, full gates tilted to the outside of the turn, these are the staple drills for teaching line and crossblocking.

So I'm not sure if I'm understanding the disagreement between the rusty and Max. (other than the obvious references to HH) Yes, the drill had merit, if used in the context I believe it was. Is it a way to ski or carve a turn? I think we should be able to agree that ANYTHING which takes us closer to the DESIRED outcome (not your outcome, but that of the coaches and skiers on the video) is a good thing.

Is there any argument to that?
post #32 of 61
Thread Starter 

jeezzz guys....such a waste of editorial space...

vailsnopro was most right on. The point on 'modern' skis is to pivot the leg form the hip so the tip and tail of the ski are more or less evenly displaced around the heel...not the toe. Eliminates the heeel pushing. Ski the hill-race the race...means you should be able to displace the ski - skid,stivot or shmeer - at any time. If its too steep or fast give up the rail and stay on yer feet by getting centered on the ski. Pick up the rail when you can. Carving too fast for the next gate ? ... get tall and stivot and then drop onto a clean ski. The feeling of a bit of steering/torque on the ski during a carving turn is a good thing. The skills in the vid are not debatable...and I can see lots to try to imitate.
post #33 of 61
where did heel pushing and pivoting around the tips come into this conversation?
post #34 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Pivot slips are just carved turns without the edging.
Braquage has nothing to do with carved turns
post #35 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
What I thought was wicked cool was the exercise where they pivoted/skidded, and then engaged the edge! Nice segue into the slivot turn entry!
Around 1:10? Me too. Was playing around with these on the hill. This was the only new to me thing I saw in the vid.
post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post

DING!!!! Both Max and Rusty- go to your corners!

Let's first of all identify that what those kids were doing were not pivot slips...

Is there any argument to that?
Quote:
difference between what the kids were doing and a standard pivot slip
Ding! No argument. Thanks VSP.

It's nice to see an examiner back up where I was trying to go with this.

Unfortunately, I also could not resist turning around a couple of different styles of arguments against a certain well known coaching position. So I started with claiming I had an open mind and asking for some convincing evidence instead of offering my own evidence to be attacked. So when the battle shifted to word stuffing, I simply returned fire. When the battle shifted to getting in the last word, I returned fire. So now the argument has finally boiled down to the old reliable tactic - semantics. You see, now there is a magical difference between pivots and redirecting the skis. The real purpose behind this argument was to expose some common tactics in order to show why the most knowledgeable people on this forum don't engage in these conversations.

There are some ski instructors who worry that the general public will be easily fooled by the man who has sold a lot of books and those who preach of his methods and beliefs. My first point is that this thread shows how easily these tactics can be used to frustrate and confuse one's opposition no matter who uses the tactics. They are just debating tactics that are totally unrelated to the reality of the topic of discussion. Once these tactics are exposed, the arguments lose their potency quite quickly. My second point is that when you boil away all of the rhetoric, there are a few good ideas buried among lots of the same old stuff that happens to have all new labels stuck to them (i.e. semantics). My third point is that although the semantics are designed to make similar things look different, it is not all that hard to see that there really is no substance behind many of these arguments. The claims that one has to have WC experience to understand what movements WC racers are making rings hollow when those without such experience claim superior knowledge of racing and can't identify relatively simple differences in movements. I left the door open for common ground to be found. Even those without great knowledge of ski technique can see that that door as not entered. It matters not whether the reason was lack of will or lack of skill, there's been no substantive argument presented that the training program in the video was not effective. And this my friends is why we need not get angry when the emperor who wears no clothes and offers flavored water claims we know not of what we speak.

To misquote a famous commercial:
Ding - you're now free to move about the forum
post #37 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
...there's been no substantive argument presented that the training program in the video was not effective.
Without seeing ALL of the kids in the program we can't know how effective the training program is. That said, there is no pivot slip (or whatever you want to call that pivot drill) shown in the final product of the best racers in that vid.
post #38 of 61
Of course there is no slip, that is obvious. However, there is the same sort of femoral rotation, just a different intensity.

Now why don't you tell us what the substantive differences are?.... you're the one that says the rotation is different.
post #39 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Of course there is no slip, that is obvious. However, there is the same sort of femoral rotation, just a different intensity.

Now why don't you tell us what the substantive differences are?.... you're the one that says the rotation is different.
Do you really believe that the muscle movements required to perform the pivot slip type of drill shown at the beginning of the tape is the same as the muscle movements used to tip the skis when the racers are in the course?

Tipping vs pivoting. They are not the same and you don't learn one from the other.
post #40 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Without seeing ALL of the kids in the program we can't know how effective the training program is. That said, there is no pivot slip (or whatever you want to call that pivot drill) shown in the final product of the best racers in that vid.
Hmmm - then why do not the proponents of the other teaching system not have to see ALL of the skiers who take lessons based on traditional teaching systems (aka TTS) before passing judgment?

That said, there is no White Pass turn in my free skiing either, but the drill did help improve my free skiing by teaching me how to make certain movements. Since the other teaching system claims that traditional ski instructors don't teach movements and you are unable to observe the common movements in the drill progression, your last observation makes perfect sense.

By all means Max, please feel free to have the last word. I'm going to my corner now.
post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Do you really believe that the muscle movements required to perform the pivot slip type of drill shown at the beginning of the tape is the same as the muscle movements used to tip the skis when the racers are in the course?

Tipping vs pivoting. They are not the same and you don't learn one from the other.
What the skiis are doing is not what the argument is about Max.

It's about the movements above the skis.
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It's about the movements above the skis.
Yup, that's why I said the muscle movements used are not the same.
post #43 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Yup, that's why I said the muscle movements used are not the same.
which muscle movements are different?
post #44 of 61
I doubt Max will answer. Everyone has asked that question at some point or another. All we get are relentless hearsay assertions..
post #45 of 61
Guys, are you really trying to say that a pivot slip involves the same muscles as tipping?

Let me suggest this: stay on one foot and try to tip. Easy right? Now try to pivot that foot. Impossible right? Why? Evidently a pivot involves more than the subtle rotation of the femur. To be more accurate, in a pivot slip the foot has to rotate below the knee (in addition to the femur rotation). Obviously it won't rotate much in a boot, but the forces required for the pivot will be there and they won't be coming from femur rotation alone. The calf and shin muscles have to get involved too. No?
post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
What I thought was wicked cool was the exercise where they pivoted/skidded, and then engaged the edge! Nice segue into the slivot turn entry!
I liked that one too. Not an easy drill to do. I suspect that most here would have quite a significant challenge executing that drill to the level of proficiency that was displayed by those kids... if they could do it at all.
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
I liked that one too. Not an easy drill to do. I suspect that most here would have quite a significant challenge executing that drill to the level of proficiency that was displayed by those kids... if they could do it at all.
Where at in the vid?
post #48 of 61
Also as a side note to those who keep arguing about this video (as others have said), the "pivots" in this video are not pivot slips by definition. I haven't listened to this with the sound on to see if they talk about what they are doing, but at the beginning of the clip there is a nice little table of contents that displays exactly what they were working on. None of the skills listed were "pivoting".

They do however include:
  • Quick random speed
  • Variation [assuming of turn shape and size]
  • Feet Precision
Is it possible that the "pivots" drill at the beginning was targeting those areas and NOT pivoting? Maybe? Perhaps?

Nowhere did I see "Pivot into a carve" listed on there, nor do I see the pivoting being the focus for the final product of carved turns that is produced. However, the elements that are in the pivot slips that ARE in the carved turns have much more to do with edge control/awareness, quickness (on and off the edges), precision, and variability of turns.

Could the drills be perfected by each skier - sure they could. These kids are in grade school, not racing on the WC... yet. The training they are going through is to make them comfortable doing anything on their skis. Quickly pivoting a flat ski into a hard edge set and then quickly releasing it is probably not aimed at teaching these kids to arc their skis - they are already pretty proficient at that (more than most here I would guess). There is much more skill building that goes into preparing a skier for slalom gates than just teaching them to carve their turns.

Later

Greg
post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Where at in the vid?
1:06
post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
1:06
On the same page as you. Can't speak for others but I would need quite a bit of practice to do that as proficiently as those kids.
post #51 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Guys, are you really trying to say that a pivot slip involves the same muscles as tipping?
No. [insert finger nail on chalkboard smiley here]

But the exercise progression does add tipping movements to the rotary movements that are isolated in a standard pivot slip. The exercise that VSP said was wicked cool, Heluva likes and I said makes a good tactic for "firm" snow and dull edges is a prime example of this.
post #52 of 61
Bingo!
post #53 of 61
Wow that's good skiing :O
post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-force View Post
The point on 'modern' skis is to pivot the leg form the hip so the tip and tail of the ski are more or less evenly displaced around the heel...not the toe.
I'm curious if BigE and Rusty agree with this statement? Is this the current thinking in PSIA and CSIA? Or perhaps one of the race organizations?

I'm asking because I've never heard that before.
post #55 of 61
VSP: What I thought was wicked cool was the exercise where they pivoted/skidded, and then engaged the edge! Nice segue into the slivot turn entry!

HeluvaSkier: I liked that one too. Not an easy drill to do. I suspect that most here would have quite a significant challenge executing that drill to the level of proficiency that was displayed by those kids... if they could do it at all.

Funny, but I see most skiers initiate turns through an up-move and pivot before engaging the edges. Less refined than what the kids were doing, but slivot-like nevertheless.
post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
VSP: What I thought was wicked cool was the exercise where they pivoted/skidded, and then engaged the edge! Nice segue into the slivot turn entry!

HeluvaSkier: I liked that one too. Not an easy drill to do. I suspect that most here would have quite a significant challenge executing that drill to the level of proficiency that was displayed by those kids... if they could do it at all.

Funny, but I see most skiers initiate turns through an up-move and pivot before engaging the edges. Less refined than what the kids were doing, but slivot-like nevertheless.
The big difference is most skiers aren't doing it on purpose, can't not do it on cue, and rarely, if ever complete the turn carving on an engaged edge.

The majority of skiers share more similarities with the windshield wipers on my car than with these young racers.
post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm curious if BigE and Rusty agree with this statement? Is this the current thinking in PSIA and CSIA? Or perhaps one of the race organizations?

I'm asking because I've never heard that before.
No. The pivot is supposed to displace the heel and the toes of the foot. The balance/pivot point is in front of the shin.
post #58 of 61
When I watch some of the slivot entry turns made by these kids and by WC'ers, there is certainly a visible amount of pivoting going on. As this type of turn entry is widely accepted, are we to say it shouldn't be done because it's not pure carved? I thought the whole thing about racing was to be the fastest person down the hill, not to worry about technique/style points.

In the PSIA version of the pivot slip, it should be done with the back half of the foot as the pivot point, resulting in a pivot centered on the narrowest part of the ski.
post #59 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
When I watch some of the slivot entry turns made by these kids and by WC'ers, there is certainly a visible amount of pivoting going on. As this type of turn entry is widely accepted, are we to say it shouldn't be done because it's not pure carved?
I'm not sure I'd say its widely accepted. I've seen coaches arguing with their kids about not wanting them to do it.
post #60 of 61
I can understand many coaches resisting this concept until such a time as the skier has developed strong fundamentals. But after that, its all about going fast. And as this seems to be the trend being seen on the WC, then I'd have to give it "widely accepted" status.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Here is a kickass video from Alpine Canada...7 yrs, 11 yrs...??