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# Which foot to pull back? - Page 6

Nutz. Wish I wasn't so busy right now. Still...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Schussboelie In skiing, in every turn, the relative angle of teh surface changes as opposed to the skier. There's a lot more effort or at least action required to stay centered. On turn in, eventhough the actual slope doesn't change, relatively the slope gets steeper, on turnout, the opposite is true. Add to that the multitude of terrain changes and the difference is clear. Without corrective action you always end up in the backseat at turn in and you always get a forward stance (when starting centered) at turnout if you don't do anything.
Each of these statements is perfectly in line with what I see happening (from a purely mechanical perspective).

It seems the problem with my earlier images was not that they were 'too simple', but rather too complex - else the nature of the required motion would have been self-evident. I've started on a couple more images that might help but am currently swamped with other things to do and deadlines are looming. I'll try and get back to this when caught up.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jhcooley At some point in the turn, could the skis be following a slower line than the CoM? If they're traveling at a greater angle to the fall line than the CoM, could the CoM simply be allowed to catch up?
I think this can also work if the slope is not too steep and underfoot friction is high enough (with an appropriate turn shape) to permit the proper timing.

The key ingredients to the underlying mechanical concept are:
- Slope Angle
- The Speed and Radius of the turn
- Amount of Friction underfoot

As described above there is an increasing slope angle under our skis in every turn-entry right up to apex. We are not accelerating at a constant rate - we are accelerating at an increasing rate. This matters! It's why we *must* take some active action to 'pull' our feet back (or 'hold' them back thru muscular effort).

Existing forward Momentum simply isn't enough since momentum continues at a constant rate - unless some force adds to it, or takes from it. As the slope-angle underfoot is increasing, something must happen (consciously or not) to actively force the relationship between CM and BoS to change.

That something might well be Friction if there is enough of it slowing our feet down, thus allowing our upper-body to topple forward faster than our feet are increasingly accelerating forward. If it's not enough, then we must supply the necessary force to move our feet back. I hope people will mull this over more carefully.

When people talk about 'remaining centered' the fact is we are actively doing something to achieve that end. Defining that 'something' is what this thread is all about.

.ma
Quote:
 Originally Posted by michaelA When people talk about 'remaining centered' the fact is we are actively doing something to achieve that end.
Well said.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Release the body -- organize the body above the skiis so that it will move downhill over the skiis. This may require some leg flexion/extension to accomodate positioning the upper body.
It requires leg flexion/extension to release the previous turn. Its not complicated. You MUST release the previous turn or your CoM isn't going to move down the hill.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE You'll see examples of many more ILE styled transitions in GS than in SL. I believe your comment comes from watching more SL videos than GS videos.
Or not, I watch tons of SL and GS and they are both filled with OLR.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE As for ILE = "projecting the core"? No.
Actually, yes it does project the core and I believe VSP put up a post in the ILE thread which talked about ILE being used to create energy (projecting the core) which I think is a good description of it.

BTW, I can do ILE just fine, I just don't need to create additional energy in most of my turns so I use OLR instead.
In my world, "projecting the core" will lose snow contact. Sort of like playing catch with your CM. In my world, ILE maintains positive snow contact throughout the transition.

Max, this thread is about foot pull back vs momentum, not OLR vs ILE. I see that once again you have successfully derailed the discussion.

Is it because recentering or maintaining centre using momentum is not a PMTS notion?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Is it because recentering or maintaining centre using momentum is not a PMTS notion?
So far no one has been able to describe how one might use momentum as the reentering mechanism. It sure as heck doesn't happen automatically as has been suggested above.
You are not listening.

As usual.

Serves me right for taking you off my ignore list.
That won't happen again.

Good bye.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro True but for learning to stay more centered, skating is a great activity. Replication of skiing is not actually the point of that activity.
I played around with this as a tool for learning to be more centered. I didn't like it because it uses a strong pushing movement off of the outside ski which is the last thing I want to do at the point that I need to get recentered. So yeah, I got plenty forward while skating, but the movement I was using to get there wasn't a movement I'd use in skiing. Above you did say that it wasn't meant to replicate skiing so I'm guessing I'm not getting something here. Can you describe a bit on how you use this with a student?
Ok, Now I think I'm getting it.... well just about I think. I tried to imagine myself skiing. In doing so I know that once one turn is completed and I am re-centering, you are in away pulling back your legs so that you drive the new outside leg into the next carved turn. You can't drive the legs with enough force if they are in front on you, you have to get them underneath you at least so you can get some nice body weight into the ski.
Max, Parallel skate uphill (no diagonal skate movements) and you will quickly learn how the CoM needs to project uphill and how the feet catch up. The feeling is hard to dry lab and IMO needs to be experienced to be understood. It's the same principle used by skateboarders to go uphill, and by walking up that hill, you are actually falling uphill and the feet move to establish a base of support beneath the body.
Max, remember the CoM is not stationary it moves with every body movement. How would you move it uphill and in front of the body?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro Max, Parallel skate uphill (no diagonal skate movements) and you will quickly learn how the CoM needs to project uphill and how the feet catch up.
OK, as I guessed I did this wrong as I did a skating with diagonal movements. Is this to be done on a very mild slope? Any tricks to keep the skis from back sliding down the hill?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 OK, as I guessed I did this wrong as I did a skating with diagonal movements. Is this to be done on a very mild slope? Any tricks to keep the skis from back sliding down the hill?
Sticks?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by muja2 In doing so I know that once one turn is completed and I am re-centering, you are in away pulling back your legs so that you drive the new outside leg into the next carved turn. You can't drive the legs with enough force if they are in front on you, you have to get them underneath you at least so you can get some nice body weight into the ski.
Very true about the need to get the feet underneath your hips. But, careful with the idea of driving the new outside leg into the new turn. Its very easy to overpower the outside ski and end up with a ski that loses its grip or ends up extended too early. I like to progressively extend the outside leg so that its extended by the fall line.
Max we're not talking about skating on skis, we're talking about skating on skates...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by muja2 Ok, Now I think I'm getting it.... well just about I think. I tried to imagine myself skiing. In doing so I know that once one turn is completed and I am re-centering, you are in away pulling back your legs so that you drive the new outside leg into the next carved turn. You can't drive the legs with enough force if they are in front on you, you have to get them underneath you at least so you can get some nice body weight into the ski.
What exactly do you mean by "drive the new outside leg into the next carved turn"? What kind of movement do you use to drive the leg into the turn?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 What exactly do you mean by "drive the new outside leg into the next carved turn"? What kind of movement do you use to drive the leg into the turn?
Sorry for delay in the reply. Hmm, let me think what I meant by drive - I guess what I am saying here is the action of engaging the edge of the new outside ski into the new carve and by drive I mean the active conscious action of moving my leg into the position whereby this edge engagement can happen. I guess drive wasn't a good word to use here, and I'm sure I am not skiing in any technically advanced fashion either, it's just the way I imagine I'm skiing when I think back and picture myself. tdk6, did I answer your query?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by muja2 Sorry for delay in the reply. Hmm, let me think what I meant by drive - I guess what I am saying here is the action of engaging the edge of the new outside ski into the new carve and by drive I mean the active conscious action of moving my leg into the position whereby this edge engagement can happen. I guess drive wasn't a good word to use here, and I'm sure I am not skiing in any technically advanced fashion either, it's just the way I imagine I'm skiing when I think back and picture myself. tdk6, did I answer your query?
Yes, you did .
Quote:
 Originally Posted by tdk6 Yes, you did .
Totally off topic, but I just realized that your also located in Finland. Would be good to hook up some time, I might learn a few things morjens.
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