EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Recent SL-ish Turns (work in progress) - MA?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Recent SL-ish Turns (work in progress) - MA? - Page 2

post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...and my point was, if you're trying to emulate what you'd do in a course, this is goodness, because parentheses are fasters than Cs...
I agree here! Not my point. I was referring to the fact that it is relatively easier to make commas than C's and with an overcanted or strong inside edge bias, it is even easier to make commas than C's. Oh, and by the way not all slalom turns are commas!!

Let's not make a chest puffing thing out of this simple observation! As I stated in my very first post here, "nice turns".
post #32 of 43

Got it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I agree here! Not my point. I was referring to the fact that it is relatively easier to make commas than C's and with an overcanted or strong inside edge bias, it is even easier to make commas than C's. Oh, and by the way not all slalom turns are commas!!

Let's not make a chest puffing thing out of this simple observation! As I stated in my very first post here, "nice turns".
...sounds like a plan to me...
post #33 of 43
Aren't comma's supposed to show the bulk of the turning effort occur during the upper part of the turn?
post #34 of 43

Sort of....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Aren't comma's supposed to show the bulk of the turning effort occur during the upper part of the turn?
...but I think the real idea is that commas stay closer to the fall line than Cs do...I mean, it's a matter of degree, because we're talking (I think) about clean arcs in either case. If we all agree that a comma is closer to the fall line, then that racer wins...because all other things being equal, he (or she) who stays closest to the fall line is going to use gravity better and keep it more aligned with momentum.

I think there's a couple of interesting aspects to this. The first is "Well...that's fine for racers, but I want control...I am not looking to get to the bottom ASAP." Somewhat true, but look at my signature "If you're not turning, go faster." I learned this many years ago when I started my PSIA teaching career. My ski school director at Copper watched me struggle with a bunch of never evers one day and then he basically told me "Good job...you're working with their movements, and that's good, but the more you use gentle, comfortable terrain to encourage them to get moving down the hill, the less they'll have to rely on muscle power to turn the skis, and the more they can use momentum to get the skis to turn them." So I think the concept is that a big, round C will give you lots of control, but something that stays closer to the fall line can help preserve your momentum, and you can then use that momentum to bend the ski and get it to release, and keep it moving down the hill, which is where you want to go anyway.

What do racers say? "Know your limits...and exceed them frequently." Okay, maybe that's a little on the heavy side for most skiers. But you get the idea...efficient, effective skiing is always a balance between control and letting the skis run. Look at a GS course. If it's a decent set, on the steeps, you will definitely see lots of offset, and more of a C type turn. On the flats, with less offset, more of a comma shape.

The other aspect of this, and I'm not trying to pick apart what you're saying, is the concept of "turning effort" at the top of the turn. I've been working with a coach who is an ex-US Teamer who's got me doing stuff radically different than the way I did business the last couple of years.

On my Masters team, we've all been so hung up on getting upside down and pressuring the living snot out of the ski at the top of the turn that...guess what? We're making fabulous, round, carved turns...and finishing off in the weeds. It turns out that because of the advances we've made in ski design and construction, all you really have to do...to take the case of a turn in a course...is run on as little edge, and as lightly as you can, until you get to the rise line, then steer toward what Ron LeMaster calls the apex of the turn (roughly the middle or fall line phase of the turn...he admitted he didn't have a precise definition of "apex" at his recent talk in Boulder), which is where you really want the forces to load up.

This guy who has been coaching me says that he wants the top of the turn to be as light and effortless as possible, and you know what? If you think that way, and steer to a clean edge, the ski hooks up just fine...no added muscle power needed. So the idea is that it's as bad an idea, and this goes for everybody, not just racers, to hang on the edge at the top of the turn as it is to hang on the edge at the bottom of the turn...which is the thing we've always worried about, right?

I remember the first time I skied on a shaped race ski, somebody asked me what I thought, and I said something like "Wow, it's one hell of a lot easier...but you need to be a whole lot quicker and cleaner." Wish I'd have listened to myself a little more closely...
post #35 of 43
Nice post.

I understand the notion of the comma to be that the skis exit from the turn closer to fall-line -- there is a lot less pressure late in the turn than in a 'C' shaped turn.

With all respect, you say, you've been pressuring the top, and coming up with nice ROUND turns. To me, this sounds like release is simply too late. Release to me, means release of the CM/upper body.

I do not subscribe to the notion that late pressure will make you faster than early pressure. It makes no sense: resisting the downhill pull of gravity cannot make you faster, as you want to go downhill.....but there is a way it can make sense, if you are careful about the wording.

Here is the exampleL: if you lighten top and bottom, you end up skiing like Ligety.

But you have to revisit the definition of the top and bottom of the turn, and neutral. Let's face it, Ligety has a short but highly pressured top of turn, after a long neutral/preparation phase. The belly of his turn is short but highly pressured, his completion occurs quickly thereafter, again, to minimize the resistance to gravity......His turns are very very short in duration, with a LONG transition phase, most of which is spent unweighted. So the spot between edge neutral and initiation is not considered "the top of the turn" anymore it's light, just like after completion (ie. release of the upper body).

So now, if you look at what's really going in in Ligety's turns, they're sort of C shaped, but there is a heck of a lot less of that C, especially at the bottom than most......
post #36 of 43

Yeah, that's fair...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Nice post.

I understand the notion of the comma to be that the skis exit from the turn closer to fall-line -- there is a lot less pressure late in the turn than in a 'C' shaped turn.

With all respect, you say, you've been pressuring the top, and coming up with nice ROUND turns. To me, this sounds like release is simply too late. Release to me, means release of the CM/upper body.

I do not subscribe to the notion that late pressure will make you faster than early pressure. It makes no sense: resisting the downhill pull of gravity cannot make you faster, as you want to go downhill.....but there is a way it can make sense, if you are careful about the wording.

Here is the exampleL: if you lighten top and bottom, you end up skiing like Ligety.

But you have to revisit the definition of the top and bottom of the turn, and neutral. Let's face it, Ligety has a short but highly pressured top of turn, after a long neutral/preparation phase. The belly of his turn is short but highly pressured, his completion occurs quickly thereafter, again, to minimize the resistance to gravity......His turns are very very short in duration, with a LONG transition phase, most of which is spent unweighted. So the spot between edge neutral and initiation is not considered "the top of the turn" anymore it's light, just like after completion (ie. release of the upper body).

So now, if you look at what's really going in in Ligety's turns, they're sort of C shaped, but there is a heck of a lot less of that C, especially at the bottom than most......

...and I think that's probably the same as what I was talking talking about, which is how you describe the way Ligety is currently skiing. Interestingly enough, one of my teammates and I have been working on exactly what you're talking about, which is on the steeps, it's still a "C" but it's in a pretty small space horizontally and vertically, and there's a lot of light, gliding stuff in between.

There was another thread I was in recently where the discussion was, here's what you do in powder...no it isn't, here's what you really do in powder...maybe, but here's what you should do in powder...and what I said was, it's somewhat dependent on what the powder (shallow, deep, dense, light, and so forth) and the tools you are using, where one of my examples...and I have done this...is skiing powder on a pair of 223 cm DH skis.

I kind of hijacked this thread, so I promise 2 things:

(1) Greg, I really like the way you are skiing, take my suggestions for what it's worth...or not...and

(2) Here's a somewhat related/somewhat tangential thought that I'll offer for everyone's review, and then I'll shut up...and here 'tis....

My background is, I'm PSIA Level 3 Cert, taught for 5 years at Breckenridge, 1 year at Copper, 1 year at Gore Mt., NY. I started racing Masters about 20 years ago, and that has been a blast. I've gotten to race DH, which I always wanted to do, raced in 5 Masters Nationals and 4 Internationals, including the Masters World Criterium at Park City in 2001, definitely a high point. I train at Eldora in Colorado and race in RMM. Last year I got my Level 1 USSA coaching certification, which was a great learning experience.

In the fall, most of the folks on my team start free skiing early at Loveland in late October, we go to free skiing at Eldora in mid-November to running gates there to our winter RMM season. Usually, we start out on slalom skis because there ain't a lot of hill space early and it's the easiest tool to use to work on stuff. One of my teammates/coaches, Broc Thompson, who is the big dog on the porch in RMM and also races FIS (he's down to about 40 points in SL) agree on the same thing, and we beat up all the newbies about this constantly. Which is, don't spend all your time on SL skis. Get on the GS boards, and if possible, bigger sticks than that. (This is, of course, in addition to all the other stuff in your quiver for skiing bumps, trees, powder, and so forth).

Why? Because it's great to do the Stenmark thingie and really work on the fine-tuning of your turn shape at low speeds, or increasing speeds, on SL skis...but if you spend all your time on SL skis, you're gonna get a false sense of how you're really standing on your skis, and moving on your skis, and using the forces and ski design.

So, accordingly, I try to spend at least a couple of hours a week on a pair of 201 SGs or longer making low edge angle, big radius turns on the flat....and yeah, on the steep, too. You can think you're standing exactly on the sweet spot on a pair of SLs, but the facts are that you can be a little off and still get an okay turn. To turn a pair of SL skis really well, yeah, you have to be right on the money, but to turn them just okay, all you have to be is...just okay.

Once you get on a pair of Big Sticks...well, the game just changed, for two reasons: (1) If you ain't standing and moving efficiently and effectively, it won't be a question of a good/better/best turn shape, because there won't be any shape at all. A big ski takes a good balancing act, solid fundamentals, and strong, positive moves, otherwise it'll just go straight. (2) A big ski won't do much of anything until it has some juice applied to it. I have a pair of 212 Atomic DHs I got from a kid on the US Team from California, and they won't do a thing until I'm doing at least 40...but at that point, provided I got the moves, it's just like being in a Porsche that felt like dog doo in stop and go traffic, but will suddenly average 90, no sweat, from Georgetown to Denver on I-70.

I'm not just talking about doing this as a you-know-what measuring contest. One of the skills we worked on...which you never hear much about outside racing circles, which I think is unfortunate...in my Level 1 coaching clinic, was making turns in a tuck. Low tuck, high tuck, mostly on the flat, then working into rolling terrain. It teaches you how to be clean, subtle, and how to use the forces and the ski rather than trying to do it all yourself...try it, you'll like it!
post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
You can think you're standing exactly on the sweet spot on a pair of SLs, but the facts are that you can be a little off and still get an okay turn. To turn a pair of SL skis really well, yeah, you have to be right on the money, but to turn them just okay, all you have to be is...just okay.

Once you get on a pair of Big Sticks...well, the game just changed, for two reasons: (1) If you ain't standing and moving efficiently and effectively, it won't be a question of a good/better/best turn shape, because there won't be any shape at all. A big ski takes a good balancing act, solid fundamentals, and strong, positive moves, otherwise it'll just go straight.
Seems like this also answers the question I had about the difference between building the turn from the boot on SL vs GS skis, and what the benefit of doing it on SL's that can be thrown about just about every way.
post #38 of 43
Thread Starter 
Thanks to everyone for the comments. I definitely have a lot that can still be worked on including timing of initiation/release, balance, and fore/aft movement. Hopefully within a few weeks I will have an update...
Later
Greg
post #39 of 43
I just want to thank Greg for posting this vid. It's given me a lot to think about too.
post #40 of 43
Those turns look very nice and balanced! As you get to a more aggresive level, maybe on a steeper slope you can add some more fore/aft movement into the mix for some exiding transitions

As far as Rick's comment that "Modern slalom does not entail much arc to arc carving" I am not sure that I completely agree with it. If you have Ante Kostelic line up the gates maybe so but I think that it truly depends on who's setting up the course. Some coaches are plain mean , just ask the young racers at Ski Club Vail. Some will make a nice slalom with a good rhythm that can be a pleasure to ski and some will set the gates as if they woke up on the wrong side of the bed, with couple of off-camber flushes and several rhythm changes in the steeps.
That’s written with tongue-in-cheek of course, but I am serious about the fact that the individual style of the person setting up the gates is affecting the shape of the turns.
post #41 of 43
Good symmetry in your boot setup Helluva. It looks good on you. Nice neat, ready active ankles. Good for you.

Food for thought.

1. Snow ski contact thru edge switch. The more you load, the more you "boing!" This is generally caused by switching weight and edges simultaneously. More weight on the little toe edge just prior to pole touch and the spring will disappear! And, as you get better at the timing, no load or edge angle will cause you to spring. Be stronger to the new outside ski (uphill edge) prior to edge switch.

2. Pole touch. For timing and body direction. The touch triggers the switch. Move to the direction of the touch. Try a pair 1" shorter. I like your hand position and how your hand doesn't come up to touch or rebound. However, your right touch is often a basket slap, and your left is non existent. Touch the pole tip. Show timing symmetry on both sides.

3. Vary your rhythm and edge angle. Be more playful.
post #42 of 43
Thanks for the slow mo slider. Nice skiing Greg. Can't wait to see you bashing some SL gates on film.
post #43 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
Good symmetry in your boot setup Helluva. It looks good on you. Nice neat, ready active ankles. Good for you.

Food for thought.

1. Snow ski contact thru edge switch. The more you load, the more you "boing!" This is generally caused by switching weight and edges simultaneously. More weight on the little toe edge just prior to pole touch and the spring will disappear! And, as you get better at the timing, no load or edge angle will cause you to spring. Be stronger to the new outside ski (uphill edge) prior to edge switch.

2. Pole touch. For timing and body direction. The touch triggers the switch. Move to the direction of the touch. Try a pair 1" shorter. I like your hand position and how your hand doesn't come up to touch or rebound. However, your right touch is often a basket slap, and your left is non existent. Touch the pole tip. Show timing symmetry on both sides.

3. Vary your rhythm and edge angle. Be more playful.
Thanks! A few coaches have recommended that I try a shorter slalom pole. It looks like I'll be ordering something shorter to play around with.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Recent SL-ish Turns (work in progress) - MA?