New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Binding DIN - Page 3

post #61 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
Because this is the internet.

If this was the real world, we would all know that you actually ski slowly on groomers, and wouldn't have to listen to you when you talk about din settings. We would all know that you don't need them.

For those of us with higher dins, it would be obvious that we are skiing faster and more agressively, and thus we need the higher dins to keep from pre-releasing.

It really is that simple.



I'm the guy you see skiing really, really fast....so fast, it really stands out as....."holy crap that guy is hauling!!!!" You really don't see that very often.
Only a half-wit would say the things you say! you have no idea how or where I ski. I've seen your skiing! You don't need higher DIN you need to learn how to ski!
post #62 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Only a half-wit would say the things you say!
I quibble only with your generosity.
post #63 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Only a half-wit would say the things you say! you have no idea how or where I ski. I've seen your skiing! You don't need higher DIN you need to learn how to ski!
A-man, HS is trolling and you're rising to the bait. Never forget that he writes mostly to get a reaction. He is best ignored.

I believe Big-E's initial suggestion is correct - reduce DIN for younger children, as per the Salomon chart. Seven-year-old kids may be fast for their age, but they don't require compensation for large forces, impacts, etc. In fact, they may get into more trouble at slower speeds, where most of the damage occurs.

Some personal DIN (and Marker) experience:

1. Since these are only single data points their value, if any, is certainly limited.

2. I have had trouble with some Markers apparently pre-releasing upward at the toe, generally when the ski was strongly decambered in a trough between bumps. The release was effortless, the heel remained closed, and the ski remained traveling in the same direction. I was told that this might be due to incorrect forward pressure adjustment. It might also be a software (pilot) error. After all, if I had been standing with pressure in front of my heel rather than behind it, my toe would have stayed down even if the toe wings opened for an instant.

3. I have a new pair of K2 system skis with Marker piston bindings. The rail mount allows the toe and heel to float around the point where the cam engages the ski, so the toe and heel are not forced together when the ski is strongly decambered. I have not had any prerelease problems, but I have not skied any icy bumps, either. The ski does bend nicely when laid over on edge, and seems happy to carve an arc much smaller than its nominal sidecut radius.

4. I have skied Salomon bindings for years without prerelease issues, despite certain people telling me I should set the DIN higher to ski bumps. I do, however, carry a screwdriver to readjust the wings on the toepiece when they get loose. This is not an issue with most of this year's Salomon designs.

5. I did hyperextend the ligaments in the back of one knee once when I drove a ski tip into an unseen object at relatively low speed. The binding did not release. I subsequently reduced the DIN on the heel by 0.5 without introducing any prerelease problems.

I have had numerous releases. With the exception of the Marker releases mentioned above in item 2, they were all "honest" releases. For a few of them, I felt the forces were low, and I might have preferred it if the ski stayed on, but it least I was able to find the ski, put it back on, and ski out easily, even in those cases where I ended up well below my ski. In the case of #5 above, skiing out was very painful.

Sooooo...even though HS will think I'm gay (and so what if he does??), I prefer lower DIN settings most of the time. If I'm having trouble coming out too often, I take it as a sign that my technique needs work.

FWIW, I don't race, but I ski bumps, trees, powder, crud and steeps reasonably well, according to trained observers who should know.
post #64 of 81
13 DIN for me... I'm so 'core I pre-release in lift lines.
post #65 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post
A-man, HS is trolling and you're rising to the bait. Never forget that he writes mostly to get a reaction. He is best ignored.

I believe Big-E's initial suggestion is correct - reduce DIN for younger children, as per the Salomon chart. Seven-year-old kids may be fast for their age, but they don't require compensation for large forces, impacts, etc. In fact, they may get into more trouble at slower speeds, where most of the damage occurs.

Some personal DIN (and Marker) experience:

1. Since these are only single data points their value, if any, is certainly limited.

2. I have had trouble with some Markers apparently pre-releasing upward at the toe, generally when the ski was strongly decambered in a trough between bumps. The release was effortless, the heel remained closed, and the ski remained traveling in the same direction. I was told that this might be due to incorrect forward pressure adjustment. It might also be a software (pilot) error. After all, if I had been standing with pressure in front of my heel rather than behind it, my toe would have stayed down even if the toe wings opened for an instant.

3. I have a new pair of K2 system skis with Marker piston bindings. The rail mount allows the toe and heel to float around the point where the cam engages the ski, so the toe and heel are not forced together when the ski is strongly decambered. I have not had any prerelease problems, but I have not skied any icy bumps, either. The ski does bend nicely when laid over on edge, and seems happy to carve an arc much smaller than its nominal sidecut radius.

4. I have skied Salomon bindings for years without prerelease issues, despite certain people telling me I should set the DIN higher to ski bumps. I do, however, carry a screwdriver to readjust the wings on the toepiece when they get loose. This is not an issue with most of this year's Salomon designs.

5. I did hyperextend the ligaments in the back of one knee once when I drove a ski tip into an unseen object at relatively low speed. The binding did not release. I subsequently reduced the DIN on the heel by 0.5 without introducing any prerelease problems.

I have had numerous releases. With the exception of the Marker releases mentioned above in item 2, they were all "honest" releases. For a few of them, I felt the forces were low, and I might have preferred it if the ski stayed on, but it least I was able to find the ski, put it back on, and ski out easily, even in those cases where I ended up well below my ski. In the case of #5 above, skiing out was very painful.

Sooooo...even though HS will think I'm gay (and so what if he does??), I prefer lower DIN settings most of the time. If I'm having trouble coming out too often, I take it as a sign that my technique needs work.

FWIW, I don't race, but I ski bumps, trees, powder, crud and steeps reasonably well, according to trained observers who should know.
NIce post,

And about HS, just gotta respond occasionally
post #66 of 81
I haven't read the whole thread, partly because it's long, and more because a number of the posts seem to have been written by Highway Star, or in response to him, but:

- On the original question: What connects your muscles to your bones? Ligaments. What's the easiest thing to hurt? Ligaments. Muscles are also pretty easy to hurt. The notion that you can protect your bones or your ligaments with your muscles seems to me to be creative, but probably not valid.

- There are tons of posts on what DIN setting you should use in what situation, etc. What it all comes down to is this:

* No binding is perfect. No binding can be set so that it will always release before you get hurt and never release when you won't.

* Given that, a key consideration is striking the appropriate balance between the danger posed by pre-release and non-release. When you're bopping around in a wedge, the danger of pre-release is pretty insignificant. As you start moving faster and in gnarlier terrain, the harm that a pre-release would expose you to rises dramatically. The balance changes.

* More important than that, though: one of the biggest problems in binding design is trying to make the mechanism distinguish between, and respond differently when it is exposed to short-duration-high-forces (at the extreme: "shocks") and longer-duration-maybe-not-that-much-force (at the extreme: "slow twists"). The former generally don't hurt you; the latter can break your bones and -- particularly in certain orientation of your knee -- pop ligaments like skinny old rubber bands. A guy going 8 mph in an unbalanced wedge is just begging to experience a slow twist; a racer firing down the a World Cup downhill course at 70 mph is experiencing shocks constantly, and requires a couple of hundred feet even to experience the concept of "slow." Most of us are somewhere in the vast land in between.

* Another slightly odd observation: the longer your feet are, the more difficult becomes the problem of balancing the two dangers and getting the binding to behave appropriately, at least at the toe. A longer boot sole is a longer lever arm between where the binding responds to a force and where your leg responds to a force: compared to a shorter-footed person, your leg suffers more violence relative to what your binding experiences.

* Anybody who's cranking his bindings well above 10 for ordinary skiing is doing something wrong. Most likely he's mis-setting the release force on his bindings. If not, he's correcting for otherwise mis-adjusted or possibly defective bindings, or for bad skiing. (Assuming he doesn't have little tiny hoof-like feet).

* Racing GS or anything faster will, however, knock just about any binding off when it's set at a "usual" setting. I'm not entirely sure why: I think a big part of it is being forced to hit ruts and chatter marks in a way that you just don't do outside of a race course. Even then, for GS, you're not likely to need to go above 11, or possibly 12.

* With some bindings, I find I get better performance if I set the heel's DIN a little higher than the toe. I'm not entirely sure why this is, though it might just be a personal thing.
post #67 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
Because this is the internet.

If this was the real world, we would all know that you actually ski slowly on groomers, and wouldn't have to listen to you when you talk about din settings. We would all know that you don't need them.

For those of us with higher dins, it would be obvious that we are skiing faster and more agressively, and thus we need the higher dins to keep from pre-releasing.

It really is that simple.



I'm the guy you see skiing really, really fast....so fast, it really stands out as....."holy crap that guy is hauling!!!!" You really don't see that very often.
Soon everybody will think that if they higher their din setting, they'll ski better
post #68 of 81
You can get hurt even when the ski goes off your leg, and at very high speeds, many would rather risk falling and the ski not releasing very easy than pre-release, then falling and killing yourselves - isn't that what this comes down to?
post #69 of 81
No. This comes down to 'how should a childs binding be set for racing'. The correct answer was: children under 11 yrs old (and adults over 51)have their bindings set one row up on the DIN Chart.

Everything else being said is electronic chest thumping and teeth gnashing... tune in this time next year and you can read it all again.
post #70 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
No. This comes down to 'how should a childs binding be set for racing'. The correct answer was: children under 11 yrs old (and adults over 51)have their bindings set one row up on the DIN Chart.

Everything else being said is electronic chest thumping and teeth gnashing... tune in this time next year and you can read it all again.
hihi
post #71 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
For those of us with higher dins, it would be obvious that we are skiing faster and more agressively, and thus we need the higher dins to keep from pre-releasing.
I would think a higher DIN meant that for any number of reasons you were pre-releasing often at a lower DIN. Only a true poser would automatically equate high DIN with speed and aggression.
post #72 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
- On the original question: What connects your muscles to your bones? Ligaments. What's the easiest thing to hurt? Ligaments. Muscles are also pretty easy to hurt. The notion that you can protect your bones or your ligaments with your muscles seems to me to be creative, but probably not valid.
Do this test -- set the toe pieces so you can twist the toe out of your bindings. Now do it while relaxing the ankle. Think the muscles don't provide ankle support? Of course they do.

Kids "ankle skate" on ice skates until their ankles strengthen. The ankle is significantly more protected by strong muscles, since the muscles can hold the foot straight ahead and square. An injury will happen if the foot is twisted, ie, muscles are overpowered.
post #73 of 81
Thread Starter 
I am certain, that if you can't get down a groomer on Type II settings (or Type I for that matter) your technique could use improvement. REGARDLESS OF YOUR SPEED.

The call out should not be how high you think you should set your DINs, but how low can you set them without losing aggression.

Want to wave cojones? Go low and ski hard. Check that your releases are not technique related, as in the Vermont Safety Research docs.

When and only when are you certain the release was not from technique errors, go up a half a row. Repeat. But make sure that every time you bump it up, realize that the slow twisting fall becomes more and more dangerous.
post #74 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abox View Post
Only a true poser would automatically equate high DIN with speed and aggression.
Indeed!
post #75 of 81
QUOTE- On the original question: What connects your muscles to your bones? Ligaments. What's the easiest thing to hurt? Ligaments. Muscles are also pretty easy to hurt. The notion that you can protect your bones or your ligaments with your muscles seems to me to be creative, but probably not valid.

Ligaments attach bone to bone. Tendons attach muscles to bone. Strong musculature does protect the joints to an extent.
post #76 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
13 DIN for me... I'm so 'core I pre-release in lift lines.
No, you just are skiing Markers :.



Now.....

Enough bickering back and forth or help me God, I will turn this forum right around and no one will be going skiing. Stop getting personal. :
post #77 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
13 DIN for me... I'm so 'core I pre-release in lift lines.
Never thought it was just the people behind you releasing you with their poles?
post #78 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
No, you just are skiing Markers :.
Phil, thanks for bringing me back to reality. I forgot that I can only ski groomers (with a DIN setting of 7.5 of course)!
post #79 of 81
I must ski like a real Fag because I think at 175 lbs. my din is 8 or close and I never come out. I'm not jumping off rocks, cliffs, etc, like HS was doing in his vid . I have to think that if you're jumping this would neccesitate the need for a higher din to compensate for high landing forces.

So has anybody mentioned the implications of jumping and increased din?

I read a book a few years ago about the US Downhill team from a few years ago, forget the name of the book, anyway there was a story in there about a downhiller that wanted to test another skiers DH skis on the course and his boots didn't match up with the bindings apparently they were a little shorter in length, so he wedged a piece of plastic between the back of his boot and the binding to fill the gap and skied the DH course. Pretty wild huh!
post #80 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Never thought it was just the people behind you releasing you with their poles?
post #81 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns View Post
I must ski like a real Fag because I think at 175 lbs. my din is 8 or close and I never come out. I'm not jumping off rocks, cliffs, etc, like HS was doing in his vid . I have to think that if you're jumping this would neccesitate the need for a higher din to compensate for high landing forces.

So has anybody mentioned the implications of jumping and increased din?

I read a book a few years ago about the US Downhill team from a few years ago, forget the name of the book, anyway there was a story in there about a downhiller that wanted to test another skiers DH skis on the course and his boots didn't match up with the bindings apparently they were a little shorter in length, so he wedged a piece of plastic between the back of his boot and the binding to fill the gap and skied the DH course. Pretty wild huh!
Well they say DH racers are "different"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion