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Video followup - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Its difficult to see what's up in this video due to the lack of zoom. That said, I suspect you are not getting energy out of the skis because you are too far aft. So, the big pop helps you create the energy you are missing from the turn forces.
How far forward would you say you want the cm, described in boot feeling if possible? Also where in the turns? You know from our previous discussions that I prefer being planted midsole with a slight tounge pressure if I don't feel the need to tighten up a turn at initiation.

I don't feel I'm missing out on energy from the skis (i can just about handle what I've got now) but there may very well be more power to get with more refined technique.

One thing that makes me a little hesitant to hang forward midturn is that I think the risk of the skis sticking increases the longer the wheight is forward. I've done that a couple of times with snowboards and Rossi Oversize skis.
post #32 of 54
Your aims are not that different from many here Im sure:

* Balance
* Clean arcs
* Control (but on the edge)

But are you sure these are your aims? I would have been less surpriced if your aims were:
* Jump
* Look spectacular
* Have fun

Are you achieving your goals? Lets take a closer look at your aims....

It makes sence that you want balance since you are living on the edge. You constantly put yourself out of balance only to recover in the next moment. Your balance is very good I might say because the terrain you ski over is difficult and you still manage to make it down in style and standing but its not very fluent looking.
You want clean arcs but you jump up in the air and land as far down the line as possible. That was the reason I told you to combine fun and function and land on your new edges carving rr-tracks in the upper C part of the turn. If you want clean arcs why do you jump and pivot?
Are you in controll? To me it looks like you are constantly fighting to remain in controll. You are dooing stuff that puts you out of controll like jumping and pivotting.
post #33 of 54
Thread Starter 
I hear what you are saying, but lets put it like this; I want the arc, when the ski is on snow, to be clean.
My favourite is watching wc DH. I could never in a million days be that good. I'm both too scared and not enough powerful. Theese guys and girls are gods to me. They seem to be able to land anything in style.

I don't aim to pick up DH again, I just want to explain how the ragged edge can be clean in my view.
I want to ski slow enough to be safe to the other guys in the slope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
If you want clean arcs why do you jump and pivot?
I cut the upper part to remove acceleration when there are too many bumps and it's steep enough to not want more speed.
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
How far forward would you say you want the cm, described in boot feeling if possible?
Ideally you'll pull the feet under your hips. I see your hips trailing your feet and that is an aft position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
I don't feel I'm missing out on energy from the skis (i can just about handle what I've got now) but there may very well be more power to get with more refined technique.
Using a flex movement to release helps to manage the turn forces with more finesse than a pop movement does.
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
I cut the upper part to remove acceleration when there are too many bumps and it's steep enough to not want more speed.
:
post #36 of 54
Carl R,

Lots of good advice here, here is my advice:

Stop that pumping action. It promotes that "up move" and it forces you to flail your arms during the transition. That type of pumping might be a nice warm-up on relatively flat slopes to get a feel for your edges (like you are doing it at the end of the short turn video), but on steeper slopes, you are basically pushing yourself away from the new turn and into the back seat. The arms have almost no choice but to compensate.

If anything, your skiing needs to get "more boring" in order to see decent improvements.
post #37 of 54
Try this Carl. When traversing keep a erect upper body and angulate your ski into the hill then go to the uphill one using the inside edge. Back and Forth from one inside edge to the other. When you do this,move your outside Hip into the start of the turn. Wage the Dog. Think about moving your Hips down the hill and through the turn with wicked smooth attention. Might be all B.S. but it works for me.
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
I think I stated some how and why's already in the first post.
Quote:
I'm interested in what you guys have to say. I don't think I know everything whats going on when I ski. I have a clue I hope, from my time as an instructor and some from my racing.
I have done a lot of analysis by myself, and do a lot of conscious descisions in my skiing. I don't think I'm that open to suggestions along the lines of changing the style from this to that.
In my opinion, the above in bold is totally inconsistent with the following. Others have suggested this but so far it does not appear to be falling on open ears.
Quote:
So what are my aim?
* Balance
* Clean arcs
* Control (but on the edge)
I'm interested in deeper understanding rather than "quick fixes".
Real power and the feeling of G forces come from progressive smooth turn transitions that go from clean edge to clean edge.

You currently seem to want a magic fix to the way you are going about it. I don't think there is one. Technique largely produces style. It has been suggested and I concur that style is part of the problem.

Just my two cent worth. You are as free to reject it.
post #39 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
I cut the upper part to remove acceleration when there are too many bumps and it's steep enough to not want more speed.
:
Lets try like this then; There is acceleration in the first part of the turn down to fall line, and there is also acceleration after the fall line. Say that I can do 5 turns on a certain distance. If I rotate at the transition, maybe I can fit 6 or 7 turns, and I remove a part of the acceleration. I enter the turn somewhere just before fall line. More turns = lower speed.
To me it's more fun rotating in air, since it adds some adrenaline, more the steeper it gets. But regarding why the rotation is there, I don't see any difference between jumping and not jumping. I rotate when I want to keep the speed lower and/or the surface is giving me trouble with the transition.


TomB: Interesting point. I have a question.
If we divide the turn into say 8 sections, would you say my pumping action is spread over all the sections? In my view I feel rather static (well except for some balancing, for dealing with the bumps) from say section 3 to 6.
How do you see it?

slider: Do you mean building the turn from the feet?

Pierre: No, I'm not looking for any magic fixes. I'm looking for understanding. I think your view that my style is a problem is an interesting view. Definitely food for thought.
post #40 of 54
Carl,
You are soliciting advice about changing your skiing to become Cleaner? Control? I'm not sure that is congruent with the comment that the Itaian skier is boring. He is both cleaner and in more control. Both of these qualities require the skis to slice a smoother path through the snow. To do that you need to be quieter on the skis and take what the slope gives you rather than overamp on the movements you are using. More is not always better or more effective.
IMO the path towards your goals starts with listening to the advice already given to you.
post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
Lets try like this then; There is acceleration in the first part of the turn down to fall line...
I find that I can create a tighter radius turn when I carve the top of the arc. And tighter radius turns yield more speed control.
post #42 of 54
Carl, Carl, Carl...

You say you want understanding of skiing, yet you're not interested in leaving your current understanding and perceptions about skiing behind. That is a real problem, and is going to hold you back until you come to the conclusion that perhaps what you think is necessary to produce a high evergy, powerful turn is not really what is going on. Overall, your skiing is not bad. You show some good natural knowledge of how to carve on your skis and get onto the edges when you want to. However, your turns are only high energy in the sense that it takes a lot of energy to produce them. They are not powerful, and certainly not producing energy. My understanding of your request in this thread, is that you want to learn how to make turns that are powerful and do produce/build/manage energy from one turn to the next.

If you really want to understand skiing, you need to drop everything that you think you know about skiing and start from scratch, without any preconceived notions that you have a clue what you are doing.

You need to re-think you understanding of stance and how it relates to balance, and then look toward lateral balance and how upper body position affects it through the turn. Notice that when you are getting your edge angles now, they are not progressive? You jump into the turn, slam your edges onto the snow at some angle, and ride that angle through the whole turn (often falling onto the inside ski from lack of balance with the outside ski). There is no building of edge angle, or increase or decrease of angle as the turn develops. In conjunction with all that, you need to focus (as many others have said) on your transitions. Your transitions now are not doing you one favor at all in your skiing. Sure you are jumping onto the edge of the ski and it might feel powerful when they finally hook up, but to get out of the turn (release) you are standing straight up and realeasing any minute amount of energy in the ski stright up in the air. The reason you have to jump out of and into every turn is because there is no energy being stored in the ski (and you're usually too far inside the turn late in the turn, but that will be addressed by a focus on lateral balance).

In short - you need to learn to make boring turns before you will ever have a chance of making any worthwhile exciting turns. You have all the right combinations of aggressive skiing, knowledge of how to use your skis, and ability to get decent edge angles - but you are missing some key fundamentals that are holding your skiing, and understanding back. It will probably require you to take several steps back in aggression and terrain before you are able to dial it in and make it work on the terrain you're skiing now, but if you're willing to do that, the payoff will be huge for you. Your "style," as you put it, it just a crutch for what is lacking in your skiing.

Later

Greg
post #43 of 54
Carl R: If we divide the turn into say 8 sections, would you say my pumping action is spread over all the sections? In my view I feel rather static.

Actually that "pump" only occurs before the transition and it results in you moving up and out of balance. HeluvaSkier's excellent post describes how you are basically too far inside the turn (at transition) and have to "force/pump" your way out. In my experience, people who try to exagerate edge angles find themselves in this position at transition and have to make big up moves to get the CM into the next turn.

You would be an excellent candidate for some PMTS style turns (or we can call them race turns). Done correctly, they completely eliminate the up move, since you would be developing the turn with a progressive extension of the outside leg and release via retracting/flexing at transition. With this approach your CM should "fall" into the next turn in the most boring fashion (), but that is a good thing.

By the way, none of this means that you have to become a "PMTS" skier. I am not a PMTS skier myself, but I love the principles behind PMTS and have been trying hard to incorporate them into my skiing.
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
rusty: I tried moving the inner leg back adding some pressure to the inner leg tounge, but I didn't feel any definite wow sensation doing it. I don't think I understand what I should be aiming for with the inner leg. In the end I decided to go with a natural leading inner leg for this trip.
I understand that being more in balance is better, but I have a hunch that I keep adding speed and angle until I'm on the ragged edge of what I can perform, and that puts me back to where I am in this movie, ie using all body to stay in balance?
Carl,

It's not just moving the inner leg back. To start the new turn, we want "fore-agonal" (i.e. diagonally forward) movement. If you collapse the inside leg while you are extending the outside leg, the hips will move across the skis while remaining at the same height off the snow. When you don't collapse the inside leg, you get a vertical "pop" movement. As I got better at doing this, I did not get a wow sensation. That's ok. It's hard to get wow at the top of a turn anyway. The goal here is to eliminate the bobbles at the bottom of the turns (i.e. move the ragged edge line further up the performance curve). When you're at the ragged edge, the slghtest terrain or snow variation can put you over the edge.

It's not a coincidence that high end skiing looks effortless. The difference between them and us is that they make movements that use gravity and the skis more than we do. The better you get, the less strength you need. The problem is that some of us use all of our strength getting there. High "G" turns will eat up all the strength we have to put into them. At our level of skiing, performance improvement is all about making subtle changes to the movements that we use. Every little efficiency that we gain gives us a little extra balance as well as a little extra energy to play with or save.
post #45 of 54
Thread Starter 
Thank you guys. At last we are getting somewhere..!
I'm going to read what you have written a couple of times, sleep on it, and read it some more before coming back.

While I'm away, is this transition closer to what you guys want?
http://media.putfile.com/Carl-R-Transition
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl R View Post
Thank you guys. At last we are getting somewhere..!
I'm going to read what you have written a couple of times, sleep on it, and read it some more before coming back.

While I'm away, is this transition closer to what you guys want?
http://media.putfile.com/Carl-R-Transition
Yeah, thats a great transition.... but look at 00:17 and tell me what you see...
post #47 of 54
Carl,
The pop has a valid use, just not for every turn you do. Same can be said of the pass through crossover, extending the outside leg crossover, and the retraction cross under crossover. it has to do with the terrain and the snow surface you encounter. Learn them all, then learn where they are most appropriate
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Carl,
The pop has a valid use, just not for every turn you do. Same can be said of the pass through crossover, extending the outside leg crossover, and the retraction cross under crossover. it has to do with the terrain and the snow surface you encounter. Learn them all, then learn where they are most appropriate

A skill /move for every task.
post #49 of 54
Yes, I would say that was a much nicer transition. You obviously have enough skill to experiment with all type of turns.
post #50 of 54
Carl,

Exciting, athletic skiing. Stay better balanced between your skis. Learn how the human body balances on an incline. Get balanced and keep balanced from incline to incline.

RW
post #51 of 54
Since you like high energy turns with a pop take a look at this video lesson. Note the skiing at the end of the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0
post #52 of 54
Thread Starter 
Now I've read your posts a couple of times thinking about what's been said.

First, to be done with that; the skiing in the short turn movie, I'm just going for pop. Nothing to argue about. The technique there probably leaves a lot to desire. It's just monkeying around on skis.

The skiing in the second and third movie is what I'm taking more seriously. I'm definitely there to have fun, but I want to ski as good as I can.
I've said that I like jumping when there are bumps to hit, but what I didn't realize i that I actually air even when it's not the intention. I have read through the thread again and then looked through the movies in slow motion to better grasp the advices I've been given.

When I say that I jump by choice, I'm not talking about the up unweighting transitions. What I've been stubborn about only happens 2 or 3 times in the beginning of the second clip. It's the air from a bump, for 2 meters or so before landing. http://media.putfile.com/Carl-R-Jump I'm not arguing that the other popping going on is done by conscious effort, and that I intend to keep doing it.
I'm sorry for the confusion I have caused.
I have simply neither felt nor observed that I seem to lift off for just about every turn I do. In my head I've just been focused on getting edge and angle as fast as possible.

It's obvious that you know more about large parts of my skiing than what I do.

I've been thinking about why I do the up unweighted transitions.
I think I do it when it's icy, to chop down the edges with bruteforce. When the surface is smoother I tend to cross under more often.
What I read from your opinions here is that I should be better off with the cross under in icy conditions.
I thought about what I might do wrong when I cross under that makes me avoid it in critical situations. I think I might release the ski pressure too much during the transition almost relaxing until the other edge is set.
The way I'm interpreting your advices is that I should work actively during the transition and starting the carve even when the angle still is quite low.
Building the turn from the boot up.
Am I on the right track? Please correct me if I'm drawing the wrong conclusions.

I have always felt that building the turn from the feet is necessary when the ski radius is large. For shorter radius skis I've seen it as a blessing to be able to toss them any way I like. How much difference does building from the boot do for the turn? Is it that it makes it easier to stay in balance or does it have other positive effects?
post #53 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Yeah, thats a great transition.... but look at 00:17 and tell me what you see...
Unweighting and also a step it seems?
post #54 of 54
Carl R, have not read all the posts, but just looked at your video.

Looks like you need to redirect your extension over the down hill ski at transition rather than up. The downhill ski is not releasing and the edge change is happening with the up unweighting.

Instead of moving up THEN changing edges, try changing edges first THEN extending.

Oh, and leave the arm/wing flapping out of it.
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