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Some Guidance Please

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
First day out on the Dobie130.

Exceptional boot performance. Right from the start this boot skis well. Even without canting it really laid down a turn. I am 205, 5'10" 54 skied my whole life. I'm a real good skier when my boots are right. I ski best on terrain and not so well on groomed runs.

Here's the issue. For the most part the boot isn't too stiff for me. In big turns and on groomers the boot was perfect. But in the bumps and in terrain I came away frustrated. It just wasn't possible to move my feet back under my hips enough to pivot and steer. The area of stiffness that is causing me a problem is the area at the top of the boot (where shin hits the boot cuff and 4"-5" below) and the fact that the flex only occurs in the ankle area. When I go to move my feet back into place for bumps and short turns, the movement is obstructed. This causes me to not be able to finish and start the turn. I wind up in the backseat, on my heals.

When I got home I took the lower flex bolt out. But I don't find the flex in the ankle to be the problem, it's upper cuff.

Have any of you ever run into a problem like this? I plan to see the fitter sometime this week so understanding the issue at hand would help me a lot.

thanks

bz
post #2 of 22
Does it feel as if the fore/aft balance isn't in your "sweet spot" range of motion @ the ankle joint? Do you feel that you are at your "end range of motion" @ the ankle joint? Does the liner have a "spoiler" velcro'd to it? Try to remove that first and stand taller in the boot. Also, you may want to try to use the power strap wrapped around the front of the liner instead of the front of the shell. It will create a spacer between the front of the liner tongue and the inside of the upper cuff shell.
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
The ability to move my knee forward and or pull by heels back is limited. I am very flexible which means that I like too much range of motion. But I can't get any pressure to the front of the ski, or so it seems.

There is no spoiler, but there is velcro on the shell.

The fitter suggested and actually had me try, the Booster strap. I didn't like it, but am still open to it. I am keeping the Nordica strap on the liner only, but not under the shell.

After discussion, the fitter added plastic to the area behind the strap of the ankle buckle, to help draw me into the heal more, to bring the lower section of the tounge into contact with my lower leg. I normally add tounge pads to do accomplish the same thing.

"Does it feel as if the fore/aft balance isn't in your "sweet spot" range of motion @ the ankle joint" - yes, I can't get over the ski.
post #4 of 22
What are your calves shaped like? (big/small/low/high). If your physiology includes big calves, you may need to adjust the fore/aft angle for a more upright stance.

You mentioned: "the fitter added plastic to the area behind the strap of the ankle buckle, to help draw me into the heal more, to bring the lower section of the tounge into contact with my lower leg. I normally add tounge pads to do accomplish the same thing."

Do you have the feeling of being disconnected @ the heel especially under it? Can you feel equal pressure under the ball of the foot compared to under the heel? I have a sneaking suspicion that the bootboard "delta" may need tweaking to feel more connected.

Lastly, I've added many toe lifter plates to boots with great results. They will straighten up the fore/aft lean angle and help balance toe/heel bias
post #5 of 22
if the balance etc checks out ok and you just want to soften the upper remove a few mm of height from the top of the cuff
post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
This is helpful.

Mntlion, I wondered if this is something that boot fitters tinker with. It does feel too high.

My previous boots had an elevated board under the liner, lifting the forefoot. It was built up in the front of the boot and feathered to blend into the board near the arch. I don't know if it helped or not.

Do you hear others complain about this type of issue?
post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 
Having a really hard time

Yesterday I took my old Salomon Course 9s and old skis to the hill to do a comparison. I skied my best performance on the Salomons since getting into my Nordi's.

Today I see the fitter. The fit on these is great. I just can't leverage the boot. Although the flex is not that stiff, the boot feels like a cast up the front of my lower leg. I can't move my feet back at all because the tounge and upper boot block my movement. I am then falling back and skiing in the back seat big time and it really sucks.

I believe that the cuff needs to be lowered and that the area directly in front of the tounge needs to be drastically softened in order to make this boot a possibility for me. We put a toe lift under the front of the boot sole, that is going to come off today. I have to ski with the top buckle and strap real loose.

I am desparate for advice so please post if you could. I am approaching $800. investment and need to cut and run soon. I will still need canting and that's another $150.

So the question, what can be done to increase the range of motion, to allow my knee to move forward more, or my feet to move back more? The problem is at the top of the boot and along the front of the boot, top two buckles. I have removed one of the bolts. Is there a way?
post #8 of 22
Have you tried to experiment with the top buckle/top two buckles loosened? I would try this first and see if the increased forward range or motion is tolerable. If it is, you may need to lower the upper cuff plastic (in the front and rear) to allow for a more "open" shin and calf contact. This will buy you a few more degrees of motion @ the top of the boot. Is there a chance you are also too "locked in" @ the ankle joint and can't make subtle changes underfoot?
post #9 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantman View Post
Have you tried to experiment with the top buckle/top two buckles loosened? I would try this first and see if the increased forward range or motion is tolerable.
I am skiing pretty much at all times with no buckle pressure at all on the top and with the strap having no contact (loose). When the boot is not buckled it doesn't perform, ie side to side motion is compromised. I can't set a solid edge because I can't apply pressure.

If I buckle the boot, I am really forced into the back seat. It skis better in fast gs turns, until I fall back. If there are even small bumps it throws me, due to the 'cast' like feeling at the top of the boot.
post #10 of 22
Paul, not a bootfitter, but I think at this point, the best thing you might be able to do is spend a little bit of money on this guy - http://www.madriverglen.com/skischoo...ophy.html&dir=.

I find tat for me, the booster strap makes it feel less cast like. I put the booster on the top of the tongue and with the tongue being fairly stiff, the booster adds some give to the front of the boot. That said, there isn't a joint in the middle of my shin, so I'm not sure why the boot needs to have give anywhere oter than at the ankle. I'm sure you don't want to drive all over kingdom come, but why not spend a few hours with Terry and then go to Waterbury and see PJ Dewey at Race Stock Sports. If there is some kind of balance issue, he ought to be able to take care of it.

[Now back to your regularly scheduled Boot Guys, I just wanted to add a bit of local's advice]
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Paul, not a bootfitter, but I think at this point, the best thing you might be able to do is spend a little bit of money on this guy - http://www.madriverglen.com/skischoo...ophy.html&dir=.

I find tat for me, the booster strap makes it feel less cast like. I put the booster on the top of the tongue and with the tongue being fairly stiff, the booster adds some give to the front of the boot. That said, there isn't a joint in the middle of my shin, so I'm not sure why the boot needs to have give anywhere oter than at the ankle. I'm sure you don't want to drive all over kingdom come, but why not spend a few hours with Terry and then go to Waterbury and see PJ Dewey at Race Stock Sports. If there is some kind of balance issue, he ought to be able to take care of it.

[Now back to your regularly scheduled Boot Guys, I just wanted to add a bit of local's advice]
Oh dear, ...we did some slicing and dicing today. The boot has been softened. Hope it's not a boot lobotomy: I'll ski it tomorrow and see.

Epic, I know about those guys in Waterbury. That's where I stay when I go up that way.

Still no canting yet. I need to feel the performance before we cant. I think it will be needed based on the yesterday's performance of the Course 9, which is 1.5*/1*

Thanks for your support.
post #12 of 22
Quote:

Still no canting yet. I need to feel the performance before we cant.
it may be that you need to cant before you will get the performance, fore aft and lateral balance should be assessed as this could be the one thing that gets you lined up in the correct place so that you can get the performance you are looking for

good luck
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
it may be that you need to cant before you will get the performance, fore aft and lateral balance should be assessed as this could be the one thing that gets you lined up in the correct place so that you can get the performance you are looking for

good luck
In the shop the fitter showed me that the sole is flat, that I don't need canting. The footbed has helped in and of its self, to correct this. But my left knee is out to the side quite a bit. When I stand with both skis flat, my left knee is outside my little toe. This is my natural stance. You would think that an alignment like that would make it easier to engage the left inside edge by bringing the knee in.

So far, the Dobie has not really been tested by me due to the problems I have had with falling into the backseat. I have been skiing the boot with loose buckles and inadequate support. What I have experienced is that the edging, althought good, lacks luster in comparison to the Course 9 which is 1.5*on the left. I would like to experience the full performance before canting.

The complaint I have had with the Course 9 is that it's hard to release an edge in tight spots.
post #14 of 22
Is there a good reason that you are ignoring the advice of the pro's that have suggested that you go see someone like PJ Dewey that specializes in working with people that do not listen or take advice from experts?

You also have had each pro advise you to get your fore/aft balance and your sole cant checked as part of the process. Why are you ignoring that advice?

Your answer lies somewhere between the basics of boot fitting & alignment, a ski lesson, and psychotherapy.
post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
Is there a good reason that you are ignoring the advice of the pro's that have suggested that you go see someone like PJ Dewey that specializes in working with people that do not listen or take advice from experts?

You also have had each pro advise you to get your fore/aft balance and your sole cant checked as part of the process. Why are you ignoring that advice?

Your answer lies somewhere between the basics of boot fitting & alignment, a ski lesson, and psychotherapy.
I am working with a boot fitter who is well qualified. I have been to see him 4 times. If I had been working with PJ Dewey that would have been not so easy to do. Plus, Dewey was just recently suggested to me. There is no reason to dump my fitter. He is competent and professional.

Starthaus, my canting has been checked and my boot fitter has strongly advised me that it is not needed. I am not so certain but will continue to evaluate this aspect with his help. It's not an easy call with my alignment. I am sure other boot fitters will admit that sometimes it's not clear cut.

Fore/aft balance is an area that has not been talked about with my fitter. I will open this discussion further with him. It is an important aspect of my skiing for sure, and I agree, it's one we should be discussing more. To be honest, I don't know much about fore/aft balance in boots. This lack of knowledge may be delaying the evaluation you suggest.
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Skiing today worked for me

I felt like I was able to get to the sweet spot on the ski and that made me happy. Still not sure about the canting, yet.
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Skiing today worked for me

I felt like I was able to get to the sweet spot on the ski and that made me happy. Still not sure about the canting, yet.

so what did you change to make it work???
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
The work that had been done prior to Saturday: grinding to fit the boot, toe lift on the sole of the boot, extra strip of plastic behind the second buckle from the top to draw me back better, then later pads added along the front of the upper boot liner - instead of the tounge. Then later a heal lift to give better contact with the corner of the ankle to the boot.

On Saturday, after much frustration with the inability to get more forward with the knee: Lots of softening - reduced the inner front flaps, cut the inner flap sides to soften the forward flex. Grinding on the outer shell on both sides - dropped about 1/4" plus, in an arch above the buckel, both sides. Trimmed the 2nd buckle from the top, along the bottom, removed some of the over lap below the flap where the 2 lower buckles join together. Then the heated the crap out of the tounge and formed it to the front of the boot and my shin.

The extra plastic that was added to the 2nd buckle mentiones above was removed.

I guess you could say, the boot was softened. I skied these modifications with both plugs out and was able to "get things going". My goal is to get at least one plug back in for the sake of performance.

I am pretty sure there will be more work and the canting issue has not been resolved. They do ski well side to side, but I lack confiedence at speed - fore/aft balance? The upper part of the boot was buckled fairly snug, possibly revealing a need for more fitting in that area to improve contact.

BTW, he did not charge me for the work done Saturday, which was generous and appreciated.
post #19 of 22
sounds like your bootfitter is a generally all round nice guy
post #20 of 22
Thread Starter 
I am lucky to be working with him.

He coaches at Catamount.
post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
Update: I am sure you are all on the edge of your seats

I was able to get on some terrain with my new boots last Friday. Mad River Glen was in superb shape in so far as I was concerned.

There is something about skiing either powder or bumps that helps me leverage the boot better than on smooth surfaces. This has always been the case. Friday, I was very much able to engage the whole ski as needed. The sweet spot was all mine and it had a huge affect on my skiing.

There was a lot of short turn skiing. It was either bumps and ice or stumps and crud. What a pleasure when it all comes together.

It's all about boots for me and those Dobies really performed - after 5 trips to the fitter. Garrick Dardani of Steiner's done me right and I am grateful for his willingness to help. And thanks to everyone who posted.
post #22 of 22
Good to hear your on your way!
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