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How do you know if your doing it right?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Starting a new thread based on this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
When does one know or dont know what he is doing? How does one know that what he is doing is right?
Well I suppose he could ask her.

I would say if it works, then you must be doing something right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I can't count the number of times I have skied with someone that was positive that they were doing it right because it felt (tasted) good and then thought it must be working because they felt like they nailed a certain bit of terrain only to find upon reviewing video that they looked far worse than they felt. Watching video can be like eating a piece of humble pie.

The only sure fire way I know to verify if something is working is to watch video or have a coach working with you (giving you instant feedback).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
Max, while there is certainly some truth in what you've said here it's not the only perspective by any means. One thing that objectively tells me a lot about my skiing is difficult terrain situations. For example, going through a chute like section between rocks or trees where straight-lining would be too much speed (given the terrain or cruxes ahead) I may or may not be able to connect short shallow turns with or without a lot of effort. When I can make those turns by quickly swithching between edges with rhythm and minimal effort I have adequate affirmation of the quality of my skiing (to my standards, anyway). Your standards may vary .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This description is exactly what I'm talking about. For developing skiers, it might feel like the quality is there but often (not always) the reality is that the quality of the skiing differs greatly from the perception held by the skier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Right on Max. Except for the fact that many cannot spot anything wrong with their skiing even from a video of themselves. Worst cases are offcourse the ones that never saw themselves on video but they think they are experts. I remember a lot of good discussion about this in the thread I hosted a few years back, "people think they are carving but are not".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
That sounds like a good way, but we are WAY OFF topic so I'll start a new thread.

Reviewing video with a coach instructor or even yourself is an excellent way.

Lets see how many more we can come up with!

Winning races, (including impromptu downhills) is another.

Viewing your tracks.

Being able to ski any terrain at any speed you please without any worries or near losses or "close" calls.

Being able to make high-g turns when and where you want to.

Keep 'em coming.
post #2 of 19
Here's a response to Max I posted in the other thread. I didn't see this thread when I posted in the other. I think Ghost is right, this should be a separate discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This description is exactly what I'm talking about. For developing skiers, it might feel like the quality is there but often (not always) the reality is that the quality of the skiing differs greatly from the perception held by the skier.
I think you miss the point. The situation I am trying to describe is one that takes skill at the limits or beyond the norm for a given skier. Here accomplishment/performance becomes the measure. For myself, picking a line and skiing it the way I have planned is a more important measure than how I "look" or the specifics of my technique. As a skier progresses the "line" needs to become more difficult if it is to be used for such assessment. This obviously doesn't work for those who don't wish to challenge themselves beyond their normal limits with terrain and/or speed (of which there are certainly many).

The longer I ski the closer my feelings about my skiing seem to match the few pictures that friends may take of me. I also am starting to find there are actually times where I even look/perform movements better than I feel. This has not come about from video assessment but is rather accomplishment/performance based
post #3 of 19
You post video on EpicSki, of course!

Actually, I'm serious, provided you really want the truth and have a thick skin and the right attitude.

I posted some video with some fairly obvious technique flaws that were invisible to me. Several posters patiently explained what they saw (with specific times on the video) and suddenly I could see it.

That was an important step in remaking my skiing.
post #4 of 19
I would say the only way that you know if you are doing it right is to have the opinion of someone who knows the goal you are trying to accomplish and has the eye to diagnose your movements towards that goal.

This goes hand in hand with intent and "the right way to ski". If your intention is to go down the slope in the back seat, up unweight and shove the tails to the side to skid a turn then you are "doing it right" when you are making those movements to accomplish the goal you set out to accomplish. If a person with a top notch eye tells you that you are indeed skiing in the back seat and shoving the tails you are very likely "doing it right".

"The right way to ski" is generally accepted as skiing in the most efficient manner to accomplish the skiing goal at hand.

If your goal is to ski like Harald Harb then you best be skiing like Harald Harb and evaluated by Harald Harb. If your goal is to ski like Harald Harb and youz skiing like a PSIA D team member then you are not "skiing right" and need some more work.

Just my opinion.
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
You post video on EpicSki, of course!

Actually, I'm serious, provided you really want the truth and have a thick skin and the right attitude.

I posted some video with some fairly obvious technique flaws that were invisible to me. Several posters patiently explained what they saw (with specific times on the video) and suddenly I could see it.

That was an important step in remaking my skiing.
We need more postings like this . Great that epic came through for you!

Pierre, great input here in this slightly thread but I guess we better battle it out here and not in the original thread.

BTW, I think that HH should be left our of this discussion since there is nothing linking this discussion to him in person. And if you want MA or feedback from a lot of different styles and schools this is a great place for that. Nobody here would bash a sincere request for MA. Speaking stirctly for myselfe and Max I think that the critisism was targeted persons that are not active in forums like this. At least I was. I have been skiing for over 40y and I teach skiing and coach since over 10y back and I draw my experiances mainly from that part of my skiing zone.
post #6 of 19
Doing it right: I was leading some of our ski instructors in clinic today. We were skiing and exploring the mountain and went to some trees with powder. I had only one rule: Come out with what you started with. They are doing it right if we have big smiles and don't have to get ski patrol involved.
post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
I think you miss the point.
Nope, you missed mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
The situation I am trying to describe is one that takes skill at the limits or beyond the norm for a given skier. Here accomplishment/performance becomes the measure.
IMO, until you get visual feedback (from a coach or video) you really don't know how well you did, or to word it another way, you don't know what's up until a coach points out that itty bitty problem (for example, a slight stem on every turn) that can easily lead to a nasty fall down 1000' of a 45 degree slope.

How many times have you heard something like, "Dude, I rocked that run!"? How many times was it true?
post #8 of 19
501 and all,
We come with our own perceptions of what is RIGHT. As to the question of how does one know when it it RIGHT, I tend to agree with you that you need to ski it, self analyze it, the get the feedback from a trusted coach (video or verbal).

Here's one issue: When I see a client doing what I percieve as RIGHT, I like to ask the question "what was it that you thought/felt/sensed in those turns?" I listen very carefully for key phrasology. If they want to say "I felt really good about how much I pointed my knees", if in fact I think their thought created a desireable outcome, I will let them call it anything they want. I used to try to correct their description to match what I saw, no more.

So, while we can all debate what is RIGHT or not, we will assist development if we listen more and not bring our pre-concieved notions of what to call things and how to describe things.

Thanks for the question.
Greg
post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
IMO, until you get visual feedback (from a coach or video) you really don't know how well you did, or to word it another way, you don't know what's up until a coach points out that itty bitty problem (for example, a slight stem on every turn) that can easily lead to a nasty fall down 1000' of a 45 degree slope.
Max, like the apparent majority here you look to evaluate skiing based primarily (only?) on technical analysis. The fact that the majority here seem to feel this way especially makes sense given this is the Technique and Analysis Forum. NO argument from me that such an approach is effective and efficient WHEN good analysis and coaching are combined. However, I think it's a shame to discount feedback from performance measures. I'm not talking just about feel - I'm talking about feel in combination with objective performance measures. It takes a willingness to challenge yourself to use this approach but my experience is that it works. Of course the two combined is probably most effective (especially when a main consideration for many in getting technical analysis is to improve to the point of skiing a tougher line).
post #10 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How many times have you heard something like, "Dude, I rocked that run!"? How many times was it true?
If the quoted dude straight lined a chute and pulled off a 50+ mph turn out of it or made short little shallow turns to keep his/her speed down through it then they did rock that run. It may not be true too often but whether they had an occasional small stem in those short turns through the chute just isn't the sole criteria.
post #11 of 19
As Pierre pointed out, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If one is satisfied with whatever type of personal performance they're evaluating, they should be happy. Seeking outside affirmation is another matter.
post #12 of 19
I love the feedback attributed to one of our finest epicski pros: You didn't ski that nearly as bad as it looked. What strikes me funny is it could very well be true.
post #13 of 19
I think Pierre nailed it. The standards we use to judge a movement are relative to the goal and the methodology or system it is being compared to.

If we are to compare our skiing to specific individuals, it's another story. If we were to take the elite level skier and use that as a guide for what is good and what is right, then most of us are all inefficient and we all suck badly. This is why I tend to aggree with some of the comments in the other thread - if a WC level skier is giving some advice on technique, it has serious street cred that is worth consideration.

For me skiing is about enjoyment. I like to learn from those who have more experience with movements and patterns because it makes me more efficient, I ski longer, and more confindently, and with more command. It has nothing to do with wanting to ski right or wrong or this system or that.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
How do you know if your doing it right?
Most skiers experience chaos either at some point in the turn (usually in the end of the turn) or by the terrain they are skiing (chop, bumps, trees). The better balanced and more efficient the skier gets, less chaos and more calmness is excperienced. The level calmness can be a good indication of doing things right (or more right than before).

RW
post #15 of 19
The "rightness" of the doing must be compared to a planned outcome. Most people assume that there is a consistent and unique "right" outcome. Not so. Many people I have skied with are not doing what they think they are doing. This is definite. Interestingly, few ask for observations and even fewer ask specific questions.

Isn't that interesting?

I know from a combination of the things mentioned here: coaching from exceptionally skilled coaches (ESA coaches and Uncle Louie, primarily), examining tracks, and viewing video of myself.

If nothing else, it teaches me humility. I haven't made Weem's eyes bleed yet this year, though. Mostly because we haven't skied together, yet! :
post #16 of 19
It landed 300 yds in the middle of the fairway. Seriously, though there's a myriad of methods and mechanics that can support great ball striking in golf. If you can link turns in skiing that result in having the skis up high on edge with no discernible slippage producing the desired turn radius, how do you argue with the methods used to produce these results. Its apparent from watching videos and looking at pictures of skiers executing high end skiing they highly accomplished skiers aren't cookie cutter replicas of each other.Physically and structurally we are all a little different that I think results in a little different movement pattern by each skier to execute the same turns. The right way uniformity thing I question being applicable to all skiers.

The all mighty Right Way becomes utopia if it accompanies itself with providing more enjoyment and satisfaction in your skiing. For all I know it might. But I think you can argue if it doesn't provide hightened sensations and enjoyment as a recreational skier what's the purpose of pursuing it?
post #17 of 19
Nicely put, roundturns!

I think of Jim Furyk as a golf example. The goofy loop in his swing gets all kinds of comments, but he wins with it. His ball contact is very pure even with that.

And so I think about skiing. If the skier is creating a pure platform and not breaking it free, perhaps some of his "quirks" don't matter that much. I think about Nick Herrin's pole swing as an example. I loved it! It was very playful and showed individuality. He's changed it a bit after being teased about it by his alpine team colleagues, which I think is unfortunate.

For an example, see him after his heli in the 2006 ESA montage:
post #18 of 19
ssh nails it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Many people I have skied with are not doing what they think they are doing.
The way I look at it, if you want to be doing X, think you are doing X, and say you are doing X, you darn well ought to be doing X. Later, you can decide if you want to do Z instead, but then it will be an informed decision instead of a lame-o excuse.

Of course, the balance is different when we talk about high-end performers -- they probably can do X, Y, Z or Q, so different criteria apply to them.
post #19 of 19

Answer

She lights a cigarette when you're done.
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