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# Optimal dynamics

I am working on a translation (german to english) for our company website. I wonder if this passage is clearly understandable.

Optimal dynamics
1. At the transition between turns your weight is 100% over your old outside leg/ the leg that is about to become your inside leg. The further you lean into the turn, the tighter the radius of your arc and consequently the greater the pressure on the ski.
2. The surrounding forces produce a greater edge angle and a shortening of the turn radius. Therefore, as the turn develops the weight distribution continually shifts automatically to the outside leg.
3. At the end of each turn the outside leg is fully weighted and the increasing forces tip you over your outside leg and into the next turn. At this point (the transition between turns) your outside leg becomes your inside leg and is 100% weighted. And so the game continues on the other side.
If you don’t have pressure on the inside ski at the start of a new turn, it’s going to be difficult to develop it later on in the arc!

Whereas in the old days we did everything we could to avoid placing too much weight on the inside ski, it is essential for dynamic skiing to weight the inside ski completely at the beginning of the new turn. Otherwise you are never going to develop this pressure later on in the turn. The only possibility for developing pressure is then to increase the radius – and the only way to do that is to skid.

Recognise the cause – avoid errors
Not enough lean at the start of a turn results in not enough momentum and therefore not enough pressure on the outside ski at the end of the turn. This makes it impossible to tilt into the next turn dynamically. A lack of pressure on the inside ski is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative.

Sorry for asking but from what kind of German source do you draw these translations and for what reason?

How would you describe a turn that was made with a lot of rebound. The kind of rebound that would send the skier into the air where he would make the transition. Then we could not talk about 100% weight on the in or outside ski. Its not really logical to me.
The english is acceptable and easy to grasp. Not sure about the concept of being single footed at the transition though. Could you expand on your source? It sounds a little dated (pre shaped ski era)

### Agreed...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro The english is acceptable and easy to grasp. Not sure about the concept of being single footed at the transition though. Could you expand on your source? It sounds a little dated (pre shaped ski era)
...leaning in and putting lots of weight on the inside ski at the start of the turn sounds like horse hockey to me, and also a good way to end up on your inside ear. Assuming this is an accurate translation, whatever they're selling, I ain't buying it...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 ...leaning in and putting lots of weight on the inside ski at the start of the turn sounds like horse hockey to me, and also a good way to end up on your inside ear. Assuming this is an accurate translation, whatever they're selling, I ain't buying it...
sounds pretty crappy to me as well. go head and try that on long freeride skis and tell me how fast your inside skis crosses you outside ski.
White Pass lean? Yeah, it works, but so does ILE. Explaining the concepts; GOOD. Saying it as one works,,, one doesn't; NOT AS GOOD.
Servus Nicola, die Übersetzung ist im Allgemeinen ganz richtig und sehr lesbar, aber ich glaube, daß diese Zweifel der verschiedenen Lesern vom Begriff “lean” stammen. Dieses Wort ist etwas zu ungenau in seiner Bedeutung – es sind vielleicht mehr Einzelheiten notwendig, in Bezug auf bestimmte Körperteile, usw. Aber sonst hervorragend!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justanotherskipro Could you expand on your source? It sounds a little dated (pre shaped ski era)
my source is my expierence with more than 2000 people during the last 15 years, whom i was helping to find a technique for carving - as well absolute beginners as world cup racers. beside that i am responsible for ski developement in my company, so i have to occupy myself a lot with biomechanics and physics.

when i was a ski racer in the 70ties i was able to gain world cup top tens in all disciplines with this technique, however it was only possible to some extend without shaped skis.

also modern ski racing is based on this technique (if conditions allow), like very well demonstrated at the middle part at the womens slalom in lienz - aita camastral, denise karbon, maria riesch ....

Quote:
 go head and try that on long freeride skis and tell me how fast your inside skis crosses you outside ski.
i never tried it on long freeride skis (i dont use them on groomed slopes) but i managed quiet good on 223 downhill skis. but it better works on nice shaped skis indeed.

hallo martin, danke für die anregung! was könnte man denn anstelle von lean für wort verwenden - in deutsch sagen wir lage, das ist ebenfalls ein wort das mir nicht so gefällt.
Something is not coming through in the translation. After sleeping on it, I get that the idea you are trying to convey is to get some pressure on the new outside ski old inside ski early (a little inside leg extension or perhaps non-retraction or maybe even less retraction to go along with outside leg retraction to trigger transition), so that it is weight bearing during transition and so that it is carving (arcing) ASAP, but it comes across as you must weight the inside ski during the old turn, way before transition occurs.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost I get that the idea you are trying to convey is to get some pressure on the new outside ski old inside ski early
no other way round
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost but it comes across as you must weight the inside ski during the old turn, way before transition occurs.
also not my intention -> At the transition between turns your weight is 100% over your old outside leg/ the leg that is about to become your inside leg.

If you don’t have pressure on the inside ski at the start of a new turn, it’s going to be difficult to develop it later on in the arc!

a bit of the idea but not perfect at all
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html
Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex If you don’t have pressure on the inside ski at the start of a new turn, it’s going to be difficult to develop it later on in the arc!
Why is there a focus on building pressure on the inside ski?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Why is there a focus on building pressure on the inside ski?
A lack of pressure on the inside ski [at the begin of a turn] is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex A lack of pressure on the inside ski [at the begin of a turn] is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative.
How do so many skiers manage to carve arcs with the inside ski lifted off of the snow at the beginning of a turn?
Skifex,

With respect to the translation, it is clear to me except for #2 "the surrounding forces". The term "surrounding forces" is not commonly used in English language ski texts. Also, "recognize" is more commonly spelled with a "z" in American English. The Brits use an "s".

I can see where you are going with this technical approach and have no argument with this as "a" way to ski. As noted, PSIA has an exam task called White Pass turns which fits this description and is based on a technique taught by the Mahre brothers. It does work. However it is also possible to make carved turns with the new inside ski lifted. This is not just an old racing style. There are some current ski systems that advocate this (cough - one obvious one comes to mind).

You may want to make a distinction between 100% weighted and lifting the old outside ski off the snow. To my way of thinking, the only way to guarantee 100% weighting is to lift the ski off the snow. Although some people make no practical distinction between 99 and 100% weighting, there is a distinct visual difference.

You may also want to be more descriptive where you use the term "lean at the start of the turn". My vision of a start of a turn is when the skis are flat and the body is centered vertically over the feet. I'm guessing that you really mean "inclination during the initiation phase of a turn" (i.e. the movements that happen just after the turn has started). This is more consistent with current racing techniques. You may also want to clarify "not enough momentum" to indicate that you are talking about the path of travel of the center of mass relative to the path of travel of the skis.

It seems to me that the most important distinction of not having 100% weight on the new inside ski at the start of a turn is that the turn proceeds with a reduction in weight applied to the inside ski. If you don't have 100% weight on the new inside ski and you attempt to add more weight to the inside ski as the turn initiates, then you are making movements that are opposite of the desired movements.

Finally, you may want to look up Bolter's treatise on arc to arc (as opposed to carved) skiing for additional information on this subject. Personally, I found this to be a difficult read but it does present a unique perspective on the topic that may be a good fit with where you are going with this.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex Not enough lean at the start of a turn results in not enough momentum and therefore not enough pressure on the outside ski at the end of the turn.
I would have thought momentum wouldn't be dependent on lean
Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex a bit of the idea but not perfect at allhttp://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html
I agree, as the montage you linked is clearly a pivoted transition turn.

I believe you're trying to eliminate such pre engagement "DRIFT", right?
If your intention was to convey keeping the outside leg pressured as it becomes the inside leg, (as opposed to outside leg retraction), then you have succeeded. I can see the turn working, but I can also ski arc to arc a myriad of other ways, some dynamic, some not.

The bit about "ot enough lean at the start of the turn results in not enough momentum" is not quite right. Momentum is mass times velocity, independent of lean. Perhaps not enough centrifugal force or "not enough momentum toward the outside of the turn"? Not quite sure what you're trying to say.
Try this one, it might serve you better:
But then, the opposite works too:

Gotta be careful with blanket concepts.
Nicola, statt “lean” könnte man “angle” verwenden – d.h. “Winkel”. Oder “inclination” – “Innenlage des ganzen Körpers” – oder “hip angulation” – “Hüftknick”.
(nur einige Vorschlage – und ich glaub’, der Sinn der Worte versteht sich am Besten, wenn auch Bilder vorhanden sind…)
Here's Rocca with an engaged outside ski and no pressure on the inside ski:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Here's Rocca with an engaged outside ski and no pressure on the inside ski:
Cool photo.

But you don't suppose that pesky red plastic pole has anything to do with where his inside foot is, do you?

Skifex: If I recall, a while back you posted some video of you making some really cool carved turns. Any chance you could provide that link again?

For you readers who might not know, skifex is a bona fide former World Cup ski racer with some VERY serious credentials on her resume. To my knowledge, she's one of only two people who post here regularly who have ever competed in a World Cup race. That's some VERY serious street cred in my book.

I can't speak for her translation, but my interpretation would be that she's simply suggesting another way to have fun on skis.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Peters But you don't suppose that pesky red plastic pole has anything to do with where his inside foot is, do you?
Sure, very likely. Its just another example that suggests that the following statements need further consideration.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex Whereas in the old days we did everything we could to avoid placing too much weight on the inside ski, it is essential for dynamic skiing to weight the inside ski completely at the beginning of the new turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by skifex A lack of pressure on the inside ski [at the begin of a turn] is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative.
Max,
Perhaps it's the context. She is describing one particular type of skiing, labeling it "dynamic skiing", and giving a comprehensive set of instructions for achieving that type of skiing. Just like flexing the old outside leg is important to achieve "dynamic" skiing in some other systems, keeping the inside ski loaded within it's working range is crucial for skiflex's "dynamic" skiing.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bob Peters I can't speak for her translation, but my interpretation would be that she's simply suggesting another way to have fun on skis.
Bob, I think if she had stated it that way the guys here would not have had any problem. It's that part about ("A lack of pressure on the inside ski [at the begin of a turn] is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative." ) that has folks scratching their heads here, and suggesting to her that either something has been lost in the description, or that bit of the concept she's come up with is wrong.

It's very easy to produce clean (non drifted) arc to arc turns, regardless of which ski the turn is initiated on, if the base edging/balance skills have been developed. The photos I posted prove that. Drift is not a byproduct of initiating a turn with outside foot pressure,,, it's a byproduct of pre-engagement rotary. That can be present regardless of which foot is weighted to start a turn.

Credentials? Should never be a reason to shut down the brain and accept blindly. Harb has similar credentials, and much of what he says and teaches is spot on. But he also comes out with some real lulu's from time to time. One always has to think and evaluate for themselves. Even the best of them can stray off track from time to time, that's part of the innovation process. Just ask our resident inventor, Pierre. Skifex asked for our feedback on how her new message comes across. We provided some, and the theme of that feedback was fairly consistent from poster to poster. Hope she finds it helpful.
Quote:
 Bob, I think if she had stated it that way the guys here would not have had any problem. It's that part about ("A lack of pressure on the inside ski [at the begin of a turn] is the cause of drifted turns when with the appropriate technique clean arcs along the ski’s edge could be the alternative." ) that has folks scratching their heads here, and suggesting to her that either something has been lost in the description, or that bit of the concept she's come up with is wrong.
thanks rick - this is exactly what i was looking for, because in this translation i was helped by a friend (much, much better english as a native, less expierence in skiing) and i really want to avoid misunterstandings.

of course everybody should know that skiing has so many facets of possible movements (from snowplough over skidding to pure carving and many more) depending on the snowconditions, slopes and the line a skier has to follow or wants to follow. - as more delightful as broader the repertoire (i would not like to miss good old snowplough, stemturn and skidding, and also trust the outside ski ) - i don't want to say optimal dynamics is the one and only way to ski. it is only possible if all the conditions allow it and the skier is able to use it at this or that moment, not so often in skiracing (because the choice of line and rhythm is limited).

i think the term optimal dynamics is more confusing in english and extremly if its not seen value-free. i want to describe the way of skiing where a skier can use the environmental forces optimally in support of less muscle power and active movements. - sometimes helpful as well for racers as pen pushers ;-)

so - for almost fifty years i am addicted to the moments when i find myself in a play with gravity, centrifugal, hill decent thrust, the snow and the skis and, yes, i want to describe a possible physical reason for that because i try to avoid (esoteric) ski doctrines.
Just watch the now infamous Bode Miller how-to-ski videos a few times. Its pretty obvious that being a winning WC skier does not necessarily make someone a great coach or even someone with a clear understanding of how skiing really works.

I'm not knocking the original poster here or making any comment about the things she said. it seems that plenty of feedback was already given. Just following up to the comment that said we should take a WC skier's opinion as gospel because they can ski like the dickens. Many of them are highly technical with a sound understanding...and perhaps will be great coaches some day. Many of them have their own twisted perception of reality that translates into amazing performances for them by feel, but would probably not translate into great coaching.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS evaluate all ski advice given at all times from everyone you ever meet, including top WC skiers, their coaches and yes....HH too. Just because someone rips, does not mean they know how to explain what it is they are doing.
I did a similar drill with some of the trainers over at Aspen a few years ago. In fact it was part of a drill USSA had on one of their CD's, if I remember it correctly. So as far as I am concerned there is validity in her message. Not all skiers can execute this maneuver consistently though.
It is one of a couple options but from what I remember it is a very clean transition because the focus is on releasing and re-engaging one ski. The outside ski / leg remains very light as it extends. At the fall line the weight transfer is initiated but before then the outside ski is barely contacting the snow. It takes momentum to accomplish this because the first half of the turn is so inclinated.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Just watch the now infamous Bode Miller how-to-ski videos a few times. Its pretty obvious that being a winning WC skier does not necessarily make someone a great coach or even someone with a clear understanding of how skiing really works. .
Huh????

Is this your way of suggesting that Bode Miller does not have a clear understanding of how skiing really works?
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