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A great icon falls. March, 2008. Snowboarding at Taos - Page 5

post #121 of 244
OK, let's keep it to the facts. Explain, in a world where transportation is arguably easier/cheaper for many people, the following:

350K skier visits per year --> 160K skier visits per year

And feel free to edumacate us about power & money while you are at it
post #122 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
What's so funny about money as motivation. As you said, skiers dropped the ball (or got too old to ski) - they need the money because there are not enouh skiers to pay the bills.
Alot of the complainants I have seen were attacking the resort saying they are just doing it for the money. I find it laughable that people seem to think that blaming the resort for being greed even makes sense given that visits are down 50% form 10-15 years ago. As if a business that has lost half its mrket in the past few years wouldn't put financial concerns ahead of some sort of parochial right of customers who have abandoned them.
post #123 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vt Skier View Post
Yeah skiers never run into anyone, screw up lines or are generally rude. The truth is that both sports are equally guilty of all these things, but some people are stuck in the past and for some reason are threatened by boarders. Go right ahead and get pissed off at gapers in general for acting like asshats on and around the hill, but don't be ignorant enough to leave out the ones using two sticks instead of one.

You might want to buy a dictionary and look up the word "facts".
I don't take a position on community-wide misconduct one way or the other and, speaking of facts, I've never seen any data on the matter. Have you? Please post.

As for me, I factually stated my personal experience with collisions and the like. Sorry you've a problem with this.
post #124 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
OK, let's keep it to the facts. Explain, in a world where transportation is arguably easier/cheaper for many people, the following:

350K skier visits per year --> 160K skier visits per year

And feel free to edumacate us about power & money while you are at it
I'll try.

Bushwhacker called me a a stubborn old fart. I agreed with him and told him he doesn't have a clue about how stubborn I am. I then jokingly told him stubborness is a side effect of having money and power. I told him that he should get some of it, meaning stubborness has served me well in life. It was between him and me and not any of your business. I never claimed to have either power or money, or not to have it.

This is a capitalistic society and money and power is what is used to measure success. If you don't have one or the other, you'll always work for the man instead of being the man. That is a simple fact.

Now do you understand?

There is no single reason for skier visits being down at Taos. Snowboarding is only a small part of it, a very small part of it.

It is easier to get to the Colorado and Utah resorts (large airports in SLC and Denver) and that's part of it. The Utah and Colorado resorts advertise a lot more than does Taos. The Colorado and Utah resorts are not family owned businesses and have greater budgets to lure in the tourists.

Another part of it is that you have to earn your turns at Taos. Many people prefer to be pampered at Aspen, Vail, Beaver Creek, Deer Valley, and now Crested Butte if you can believe that. Many people on this forum claim to be level 9 skiers but you put them on the ridge at Taos and they will quickly revert to a snowplow.

I have no idea if snowboarding will help TSV. I think allowing it is more about the hotels, shops, restaurants, and other businesses that are tied to TSV for their economic survival. The ski area has enough skiers to survive but perhaps not thrive.

A few boarders will die or be seriously injured at Taos, just like skiers. They had better show up with their A game or be prepared to be shipped home in a box. That's another fact.
post #125 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
I'll try.

Bushwhacker called me a a stubborn old fart. I agreed with him and told him he doesn't have a clue about how stubborn I am. I then jokingly told him stubborness is a side effect of having money and power. I told him that he should get some of it, meaning stubborness has served me well in life. It was between him and me and not any of your business. I never claimed to have either power or money, or not to have it.

This is a capitalistic society and money and power is what is used to measure success. If you don't have one or the other, you'll always work for the man instead of being the man. That is a simple fact.

Now do you understand?

There is no single reason for skier visits being down at Taos. Snowboarding is only a small part of it, a very small part of it.

It is easier to get to the Colorado and Utah resorts (large airports in SLC and Denver) and that's part of it. The Utah and Colorado resorts advertise a lot more than does Taos. The Colorado and Utah resorts are not family owned businesses and have greater budgets to lure in the tourists.

Another part of it is that you have to earn your turns at Taos. Many people prefer to be pampered at Aspen, Vail, Beaver Creek, Deer Valley, and now Crested Butte if you can believe that. Many people on this forum claim to be level 9 skiers but you put them on the ridge at Taos and they will quickly revert to a snowplow.

I have no idea if snowboarding will help TSV. I think allowing it is more about the hotels, shops, restaurants, and other businesses that are tied to TSV for their economic survival. The ski area has enough skiers to survive but perhaps not thrive.

A few boarders will die or be seriously injured at Taos, just like skiers. They had better show up with their A game or be prepared to be shipped home in a box. That's another fact.
Serious question (not that you're not a stubborn old fart, mind you...) :
What the hell is a "earn your turns resort" ?! That's would be like ... a mountain. What am I missing here ?
post #126 of 244
An earn your turns resort... That would be silverton right? Alta includes some elements of turn earning as well. Most of the best stuff is traverse or hike from the lifts.
post #127 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
I'll try.
This is a capitalistic society and money and power is what is used to measure success. If you don't have one or the other, you'll always work for the man instead of being the man. That is a simple fact.
If that is how you measure your success, I'm sorry for you. there is a lot more to living a successful life than money or power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post

Another part of it is that you have to earn your turns at Taos.
Where I live "earn your turns" means that you hike for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Many people on this forum claim to be level 9 skiers but you put them on the ridge at Taos and they will quickly revert to a snowplow.
Anyone who refers to a "level 9 skier" has done no more than display their ignorance. I don't claim to be a level anything skier, but I will say your impression of the challenge presented by Taos is inflated. There is no shortage of extremely talented snowboarders out there.

What's more, you're underestimating the financial impact of snowboard prohibitions...There are more families of mixed pursuit every year. They will not opt for a ski only area.

Consider this - the only area in the entire country to have shown a financial profit every single year for the past 30 years is also the only area that never banned snowboarders.
post #128 of 244
Alta hasn't shown a profit?
post #129 of 244
BTW, my wife found herself far more comfortable at Alta than Snowbird, and the lack of boarders was one major reason. Somewhat ironic when I consider that the collisions she has had have all been with skiers (younger males fixating on her and hitting her from behind). But, for her, the blind side that boarders have combined with the way most boarders on blue terrain (her preferred terrain) slide around out of control makes skiing with boarders around a very harrowing experience. She felt herself far more comfortable at Alta as a result.

I think that's similar to the reason she prefers Copper to some of the other Summit resorts: it's natural segregation tends to keep it safer on the mellower terrain that she enjoys.
post #130 of 244

Just Curious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
Consider this - the only area in the entire country to have shown a financial profit every single year for the past 30 years is also the only area that never banned snowboarders.
Where is this published? I thought many ski areas were privately held and don't disclose their financials.

Also, why is it ignorant to refer to a level 9?
post #131 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
If that is how you measure your success, I'm sorry for you. there is a lot more to living a successful life than money or power.

Where I live "earn your turns" means that you hike for them.
Get off your high horse asshat. I did not say that money and power are the only measures of success. You know that life is much easier if you have both. If you deny that making a good living is not important, you're a dreamer with a small bank account looking for government handouts.

You are ingorant of Taos. That is exactly what "earn you turns" means there. And no, I have not inflated the difficulty. Like you, I have never assigned a number to my skiing ability. I do, however, see it on this forum all the time.

I don't waste my time giving opinions on ski resorts in Washington because I admit I know nothing about them. You should have the same good sense to stay out of a discussion about Taos, a place you know nothing about.
post #132 of 244

Good question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Alta hasn't shown a profit?
When I was a pass holder there I once tried to find information about the corporation, its shareholders, profitability, etc. at the local university library. Couldn't find a thing. Suspect its similar with most privately held ski areas.

Anyway, word was the owners were very satisfied with their investments.
post #133 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
When I was a pass holder there I once tried to find information about the corporation, its shareholders, profitability, etc. at the local university library. Couldn't find a thing. Suspect its similar with most privately held ski areas.

Anyway, word was the owners were very satisfied with their investments.
Kinda what I was getting at... How long have they been around?
post #134 of 244

Point taken

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Kinda what I was getting at... How long have they been around?
I think we understand each other. FYI, Alta set up its first lift 13 November 1938. Judging by the amount of business there and the capital improvements they make (or rather don't), it would surprise me if they weren't very profitable. There's only one reason not to change a business, and compared with the rest of the industry Alta hasn't changed much over the years.

OT, I skied on my new Nordica Mach 3 Powers last weekend, just amazing skis. Appreciated your reviews. Still haven't tried them in softer snow, can't wait!
post #135 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Get off your high horse asshat. I did not say that money and power are the only measures of success. You know that life is much easier if you have both. If you deny that making a good living is not important, your a dreamer with a small bank account looking government handouts.

I think you should just shut up and stop abusing people. You obviously have no principals in your own life beyond as you said money and power. In response a few words of wisdom from the master.

Be Content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.



Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.



The Pao therefore cannot be said
to waste its charge,
but constantly remains
a source of nourishment
for those who are not so full of self
as to be unable to partake of it.

post #136 of 244
Not to say that Alta has turned a profit, they certainly have. As I understand it, they have had one or two seasons where they have operated at a loss.

Of course Baker has an unfair advantage - when we get 460", we call it our worst year ever....and the mountain still turns a profit.

MJB - your assumptions are not worth replying to.
post #137 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
Not to say that Alta has turned a profit, they certainly have. As I understand it, they have had one or two seasons where they have operated at a loss.
Source?
post #138 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_Morgan View Post
Not to say that Alta has turned a profit, they certainly have. As I understand it, they have had one or two seasons where they have operated at a loss.

Of course Baker has an unfair advantage - when we get 460", we call it our worst year ever....and the mountain still turns a profit.
I don't reckon that snowboarding is the major reason for Baker's success, though, do you?

Frankly, I think that Taos' lousy snow years over the last 15 have likely hurt it more than anything. Why plan to go there and perhaps not have sufficient coverage when you can go other places (Baker? ) and know you'll get snow for your vacation. Especially when they rely almost completely on vacationers.

They also abandoned their uniqueness when they chose to follow the crowd instead of maintain their completely unique environment. I suspect that didn't help, either.
post #139 of 244
I'm 52. I use to ski and board 50-50. Now I only snowboard because of a gimpy knee. I've skiied Taos, but decided a long time ago that it could not be a family resort for me, with one son who snowboards and the other who skis. Alta can afford to be skiers-only due to proximity of Snowbird. Taos simply cannot if it wishes to be a family destination resort. Looks like they came to their senses.
post #140 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
I'll try.

Bushwhacker called me a a stubborn old fart. I agreed with him and told him he doesn't have a clue about how stubborn I am. I then jokingly told him stubborness is a side effect of having money and power. I told him that he should get some of it, meaning stubborness has served me well in life. It was between him and me and not any of your business. I never claimed to have either power or money, or not to have it.

This is a capitalistic society and money and power is what is used to measure success. If you don't have one or the other, you'll always work for the man instead of being the man. That is a simple fact.
Once you post something on a public forum on the internet, it becomes the business of whoever wants to make it their business. That is a fact.

As far as your views about success, you are talking about what is viewed by other people as successful. Your statement about either being the man, or working for him is incredibly close minded.

You have fun convincing everyone around you you're happy with your life. Thats really what money and power are good for. Most power is just the illusion of power anyways, and as far as I have seen, most people that lust after power over others don't have much power over themselves.

I'll take powder over power any day.



Oh, and tromano, that first pic is incredible.
post #141 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
Source?
I don't have it, and I may be misremembering - not that that has ever happened before, but I believe it was an article in one of the Ski Management journals a few years ago. I've heard it quoted a few times, since as well.

As far as Baker goes, snowboarding is certainly one of the major reasons for its success. That, the reliable snowfall, the conservative finances of the management, and the fact that the management has opted for a different path than so many areas.

There's no real estate sales, no "exclusiveness", no advertising or marketing in the traditional sense, no vacationers, no shops and bistros and boutiques. What there is is 32 school buses a day pouring in on the weekends, 400 kids in the ski club family programs, free tickets for fifth graders and 1800 teenagers let loose on the mountain on Saturdays. While the mountain is known for its gnarly terrain, deep snow and amazing backcountry, it is also known for it's aggressively local flavor.

That, and the 250" that have already fallen this season
post #142 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGGOT View Post
Once you post something on a public forum on the internet, it becomes the business of whoever wants to make it their business. That is a fact.

As far as your views about success, you are talking about what is viewed by other people as successful. Your statement about either being the man, or working for him is incredibly close minded.

You have fun convincing everyone around you you're happy with your life. Thats really what money and power are good for. Most power is just the illusion of power anyways, and as far as I have seen, most people that lust after power over others don't have much power over themselves.

I'll take powder over power any day.



Oh, and tromano, that first pic is incredible.
The philosophy of a man who will be a renter his whole life and who believes that 401(k) is the latest provision of the penal code he violated.

You're right! This is way too much fun.
post #143 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
People saying its just for the money should realize that the reason they are doing this seems to be that skiers dropped the ball and were not SUPPORTING their skiers only resort.
You know where Taos is right? It is a matter of demographics. If Taos was located a couple hours from a couple dozen million people like Mad River, the "skiers" would have "supported" their hill.

In actual fact, Taos is a couple hours outside of Albuquerque? Ever been there or listened to the Neil Young tune? Not exactly replete with core skiers.
post #144 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post

You're right! This is way too much fun.
Yes it is. But not the way you think it is. :::::
post #145 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
You know where Taos is right? It is a matter of demographics. If Taos was located a couple hours from a couple dozen million people like Mad River, the "skiers" would have "supported" their hill.

In actual fact, Taos is a couple hours outside of Albuquerque? Ever been there or listened to the Neil Young tune? Not exactly replete with core skiers.
MRG is a co-op. Thats a little different than a privately owned for profit resort. Every business has to deal with reality. The skiers used to be there and now they're not. Where did they go? I sure don't know. But it doesn't make sense form a business POV to turn people away when your operating at 50% capacity. You can't be all selective when you're on the ropes like that.
post #146 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
In actual fact, Taos is a couple hours outside of Albuquerque? Ever been there or listened to the Neil Young tune? Not exactly replete with core skiers.
In actual fact, Taos is too steep to attract the clueless gapers that seek snowboard-free pistes. Hopefully for you, it is too steep to attract clueless gaper snowboarders too. I think it's fairly safe to assume it will remain a a "skier's mountain" in the broad sense of the phrase.

If I were you, I would be more worried about the development of condos. etc. Taos is undergoing some changes. They will grade out more beginner and intermediate terrain and groom more stuff for the vacationers. It's convenient to blame the snowboarders even before they arrive.
post #147 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
BTW, my wife found herself far more comfortable at Alta than Snowbird, and the lack of boarders was one major reason. Somewhat ironic when I consider that the collisions she has had have all been with skiers (younger males fixating on her and hitting her from behind). But, for her, the blind side that boarders have combined with the way most boarders on blue terrain (her preferred terrain) slide around out of control makes skiing with boarders around a very harrowing experience. She felt herself far more comfortable at Alta as a result.

I think that's similar to the reason she prefers Copper to some of the other Summit resorts: it's natural segregation tends to keep it safer on the mellower terrain that she enjoys.
This thread needs pics...
post #148 of 244
Now, on the subject of earn your turns. I've checked a map : You need, indeed, to hike half the vertical !
Where I live, resort = lifts.
I don't need to buy a ticket to walk in the snow.
post #149 of 244
It's interesting how almost every thread concerning snowboarding, becomes volatile.

Views on this topic appear to be firmly held, and fervently defended.
post #150 of 244
I empathize with SSH's wife (except young males likely don't target my behind - to my knowledge).

When I tire of hammering bumps on blacks, I sometimes take refuge in blue cruisers. The "blind side" aspect of boarding is only an issue on crowded groomers. But there, it can be an issue.

Skiers have a full field of view, and therefore must assume responsibility for avoiding boarders on a crowded hill.
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