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The Essentials of Skiing - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LiquidFeet I'm still going to work on mastering this fall line-to fall-line turn anyway this weekend.
What is a fall line to fall line turn?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 What is a fall line to fall line turn?
It's a different way of thinking about turns. Instead of thinking about the transition across the fall line, think of it at the fall line. As a result, the traditional transition can smooth out.

It's a mind trick, but it often works.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssh It's a different way of thinking about turns. Instead of thinking about the transition across the fall line, think of it at the fall line. As a result, the traditional transition can smooth out. It's a mind trick, but it often works.
I'm lost. The fall line is only half way through the turn, how do you change your thinking to transition at that point?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 I'm lost. The fall line is only half way through the turn, how do you change your thinking to transition at that point?
It's the beginning of a fall-line to fall-line turn. It's arbitrary, isn't it? We could call any point along the quasi-sine-wave of a series of ski turns the "start" of the turn, can't we? It doesn't have to be at edge change, "transition", or anywhere else.

When you think of "starting" at the fall line, you begin making the movements, flow through the edge change, and "finish" at the next fall line.

It's just a way of thinking. Play with it.
max,

Quote:
 I'm lost.
Instead of thinking a turn begins or ends at the transition, think of it beginning at the fall line and ending at the next encounter with the fall line. I sometimes use that when doing short turns to get a better flow through the fall line.

RW
Falline to falline:

It's not a turn,,, its a lane change.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ron White Instead of thinking a turn begins or ends at the transition, think of it beginning at the fall line and ending at the next encounter with the fall line. I sometimes use that when doing short turns to get a better flow through the fall line.
So in that scenario the transition is half way between a single turn rather that between two turns?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 So in that scenario the transition is half way between a single turn rather that between two turns?
Come on Max, you can go there. That is essentially what the Essentials of skiing does eh!
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 Originally Posted by Pierre Come on Max, you can go there. That is essentially what the Essentials of skiing does eh!
I don't agree with that statement at all.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 I don't agree with that statement at all.
Welllllll, I don't agree with your statement either.
I'm not sure if I'm thinking right, but won't skiing inside ski until fall line hinder higher edge angles? Booting out is a much larger problem on the outside of the boot than on the inside.
Secondly, inner leg is the weak leg right?

Instinctively this inside leg skiing sounds to me like it will hamper the first part of the turn in several ways.
It's the same turns guys! The idea is to help create seamless transitions rather than how some will end one turn and hesitate or traverse then start the next turn (shopping for a turn). By beginning in the fall line, finishing a turn in one direction right through transition into the fall line of the next turn is the idea. This idea helps make the transition seamless, hesitationless, fluid, traverseless.

CarlR, The ski dominances or weight shifts do not change.
So how about we try to get back to the original post. If we can agree (mostly) on the turn stuff in Essentials, then we can discuss Bode's free skiing and how it matches or differs from the HH stuff.

Having gone back through the Essentials book again more closely, here's what I see it as saying:
1. release old turn by flexing old outside ski and sinking into the new turn (avoid any up-unweighting).
2. seek to achieve rebound and float using timing of the release and of unwinding of upper body.
3. pull old inside foot, or both feet, back under torso to allow weight of torso to shift forward and inside the new turn.
4. at neutral, all body parts match up and point across the hill together; no inside tip lead.
5. initiate turn only with tipping (avoid any rotating of skis) by emphasizing lifting-&-tipping of new inside ski.
6. as new turn begins above fall line, gently extend new outside leg only enough to maintain contact with snow (avoid any pushing on that ski). The inside ski is lightened and tipped; the outside ski is equally tipped; A-framing is avoided.
7. the torso will move diagonally downhill into the inside of new turn, and will be "upside down" on the hill if all the timing is just right.
8. when the skis reach the fall line, most of the weight will have been transfered to the outside ski without the skier pushing on that foot at all.
9. angulate and counter progressively throughout the turn while increasing the tipping of the skis all the way to the end of the turn.
10. arc-to-arc carving (no skidding) should result from all of this, because the skier has eliminated up-unweighting, pivoting of skis, and pushing on new outside ski.
11. whoops, forgot poles - keep arms up and forward, moving poles forward with wrist movements and gently tapping them on snow with appropriate timing.

Now about Bode ....
LiquidFeet: I'm still going to work on mastering this fall line-to fall-line turn anyway this weekend.

As far as I know, the exercise of fall-line to fall-line turns requires a weight transfer from the outside foot to the inside foot while in the fall-line. When you reach the traverse point (you are crossing the fall-line) you have to change edges while remaining on the stance ski.

Alternatively you can transfer from the inside to the outside foot while in the fall-line. But these are exercise. Nobody would normally ski this way no matter how much fun it might be.

And nothing in the Essentials description suggests that this is what is going on. All HH is trying to tell you is that after the fall-line you need to extend the stance leg. Past the fall line the leg become weighted because of gravity and centrifugal forces, not because you have done a weight transfer. Basically HH is explaining how you can finish the turn in PMTS style (through an extension), rather than the PSIA/CSIA style of absorbing the turn.

At least that is how I see it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LiquidFeet So how about we try to get back to the original post. If we can agree (mostly) on the turn stuff in Essentials, then we can discuss Bode's free skiing and how it matches or differs from the HH stuff. Having gone back through the Essentials book again more closely, here's what I see it as saying: 1. release old turn by flexing old outside ski and sinking into the new turn (avoid any up-unweighting). 2. seek to achieve rebound and float using timing of the release and of unwinding of upper body. 3. pull old inside foot, or both feet, back under torso to allow weight of torso to shift forward and inside the new turn. 4. at neutral, all body parts match up and point across the hill together; no inside tip lead. 5. initiate turn only with tipping (avoid any rotating of skis) by emphasizing lifting-&-tipping of new inside ski. 6. as new turn begins above fall line, gently extend new outside leg only enough to maintain contact with snow (avoid any pushing on that ski). The inside ski is lightened and tipped; the outside ski is equally tipped; A-framing is avoided. 7. the torso will move diagonally downhill into the inside of new turn, and will be "upside down" on the hill if all the timing is just right. 8. when the skis reach the fall line, most of the weight will have been transfered to the outside ski without the skier pushing on that foot at all. 9. angulate and counter progressively throughout the turn while increasing the tipping of the skis all the way to the end of the turn. 10. arc-to-arc carving (no skidding) should result from all of this, because the skier has eliminated up-unweighting, pivoting of skis, and pushing on new outside ski. 11. whoops, forgot poles - keep arms up and forward, moving poles forward with wrist movements and gently tapping them on snow with appropriate timing. Now about Bode ....
Thanks Liquidfeet, I thought the original question was dead in the water.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by TomB LiquidFeet: As far as I know, the exercise of fall-line to fall-line turns requires a weight transfer from the outside foot to the inside foot while in the fall-line. When you reach the traverse point (you are crossing the fall-line) you have to change edges while remaining on the stance ski. Alternatively you can transfer from the inside to the outside foot while in the fall-line. But these are exercise. Nobody would normally ski this way no matter how much fun it might be.
Hi TomB!

You are describing a white pass turn exercise which works well with thinking of turns segmented from fall line to fall line. However, it is not necessary to change any mechanics in a turn at all in order to think about changing your thought pattern to fall line to fall line! Skiing through the body of the turn is probably the easiest part and is a place we can kinda relax vs. the transition where so many things come together and tend to get us over thinking and becoming static. This is why I use the fall line to fall line kind of thinking anyway??
Liquid Feet, good job, that too is how I understand the essentials turn.

Now please do describe bode's turns as clearly!
Although I own both books which have been very helpful, I do find the explanations to be very confusing at times which is likely a knock against me and not HH. I am sure glad that they came with DVD's. As a visual learner, the DVD's helped clarify the details that I was was obviously missing in the book.

Regardless of the various opinions of the other epic members I do find the books to be very helpful. One thing for sure ... the guy can ski.
Ahem....

Once you released the body by relaxing the outside ski, the weight has already shifted to the inside ski. The weight transfer occurs immediately upon release, followed by tipping to edge engagement at the top of the arc.

There is no LATE weght transfer. That term is used to define stem turns ie, Big toe edge to Big toe edge.
bud: This is why I use the fall line to fall line kind of thinking anyway??

Hi there!

I agree that fall-line to fall-line is a way to get skiers to be smoother through transition and avoid screwing around on the traverse (which I have been known to do ... a lot ). The exercise I described in my post was originally given to us by Arcmeister, in ESA I. But it has nothing to do with what HH describes in Essentials.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Once you released the body by relaxing the outside ski, the weight has already shifted to the inside ski. The weight transfer occurs immediately upon release, followed by tipping to edge engagement at the top of the arc.
Depends on the intent. The flexing releases the turn but it doesn't have to transfer weight.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 So in that scenario the transition is half way between a single turn rather that between two turns?
Exactly.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bud heishman ...it is not necessary to change any mechanics in a turn at all in order to think about changing your thought pattern to fall line to fall line! Skiing through the body of the turn is probably the easiest part and is a place we can kinda relax vs. the transition where so many things come together and tend to get us over thinking and becoming static. This is why I use the fall line to fall line kind of thinking anyway??
The mere fact that this is a difficult concept to communicate and/or grasp gives credence to its power as a thought exercise. And it's only a thought exercise. There isn't really a "start" or an "end" to a "turn" during a ski run. They are a series of movements that combine in a way that allows us to pick any point as the "start" of the path that constitutes a "turn" (same with the "end", of course). The difficulty in adjusting our thinking out of the paradigm that a "turn" must "start" at the transition is as good a reason as any for changing our thinking about that.

Holding multiple perspectives usually reveals new concepts... So, experiment!
OK, moderators, this thread is getting deflected onto the topic of fall-line-to-fall-line turns. Please shift this discussion to a new thread.

Then maybe we can get back to Bode/PMTS Essentials. Given the interest in HH's stuff and in Bode, this might be an enlightening topic of discussion as well.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by LiquidFeet OK, moderators, this thread is getting deflected onto the topic of fall-line-to-fall-line turns. Please shift this discussion to a new thread. Then maybe we can get back to Bode/PMTS Essentials. Given the interest in HH's stuff and in Bode, this might be an enlightening topic of discussion as well.
I guess in light of the answers that have been posted in this thread. What answers will you accept? I does not appear that you are willing to accept the answers that have already been given.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pierre I guess in light of the answers that have been posted in this thread. What answers will you accept? I does not appear that you are willing to accept the answers that have already been given.
I didn't realize anyone had actually dealt with that topic yet, so I was just calling people to maybe do that. Guess I missed those answers.

Actually I thought this thread was going pretty well so far, without people attacking each other. I didn't mean to initiate that tone, and if I did it was by mistake. Sorry.
Often the ebb and flow of a conversation is useful for the overall value of the information it contains... as long as it doesn't become a contradiction (thanks, Monty Python!).
I just watched the Bode video again and I like it even more. It sure makes me feel better as the A framing he is doing is exactly the same as the A framing that I am doing. Good or bad I don't know. I have a thread on the things my feet have suddenly started doing and this type of A framing is one of them. I think the A framing has to do with a very active outside foot in addition to a very active inside foot. This seems to allow uneven shaft angles and each foot doing its own thing. I think this is why he doesn't dwell on release. He doesn't see one and that is also one of the things I started to notice in my own skiing but, I think not talking about a release is maybe missing the boat as far as his target audience is concerned.

In contrast, Bode obviously doesn't see a traditional release and neither do I. There is no need to release if cm movements are from the core and the center of mass is never inhibited in flow. This would explain the knee focus as well. Knee movements are the biggest movement that is very visible and next on the chain down from the core. I think Bode's footwork is so natural that he doesn't realizes how lacking good footwork is to an aspiring carver. Please don't get the idea that I have abandon the feet up kinetic chain. I have not, I see the feet up kinetic chain as a stepping stone to core center of mass movements.

Bode obviously believes in steering as described in his wedge progression. He generates the steering by rolling the knees into the turn and closing the ankles at the same time (diagonal). That is very different from just rolling the knees laterally. This steering is NOT twisting the outside ski, its pointing the knees in the direction of the turn.

He obviously believes in a very active outside foot in addition to an active inside foot as he talks about active weight transfers (Pressure transfers to me) This is somewhat of a contrast to stance and free foot type thinking.

On the surface it looks like a big difference to pulling the feet back in Essentials or move the outside foot forward in Bode's vid. Actually closing the ankles can be done by pulling the feet back or active dosiflexion. Either way closing the ankle is the same thing. Now if you push the foot to far you open the ankle and this is not what he is talking about. If you look the tip lead is still minimal and not contrived.

Bode talks about moving the hips up and forward instead of laterally. This shows in this skiing. I don't disagree with his statement nor do I disagree with Essentials on this. I ski more like Bode in powerful medium radius carves and more like Harb in short retraction turns. Whoopee, one turn does not fit all. Bode's meaning of bring the hips up and forward is different than up-unweighting because he is also flexing the ankles with hip forward movements instead of extending the ankles with the hips up/ forward movement. His movements really show over in his wedge progression vid when he demos the basic(too dyanmic) parallel

I hope this helps some. I have to pack for a trip to Michigan now.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssh Often the ebb and flow of a conversation is useful for the overall value of the information it contains... as long as it doesn't become a contradiction (thanks, Monty Python!).
Yes. Delightful.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Falline to falline: It's not a turn,,, its a lane change.
I can really relate to this concept. I often think of turning as a side-to-side movement from fall line to fall line. I think moving back and forth from lane to lane is another way of expressing the same thing. The transitions then become almost unconscious. When I was learning, I found a conscious transition to be a more difficult kinesthetic concept.
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