The Essentials of Skiing

Well the biggest contrast is in turn initiation but even there, I really don't see a big deal.

If I intitate a turn from the feet up by pulling the new inside ski back and tipping the new inside ski to the little toe edge I would certainly hope my knees went with my feet towards the inside of the turn.

Initate with the knees by pointing them into the turn is really a simplistic way of getting someone to move forward and close both ankles while rolling the ski on edge.

The difference is really on focus and what level a student would be at. If the student cannot control their feet such as up and twist the Essentials method seems more appropriate. If the skier rolls sideways and back like most carvers, the knees pointing into the turn seems more appropriate.

I see both of these methods as focal points or exercises and not necessarily "the way to ski" in either case there is little controvery in my mind between the Essentials of skiing and what Bode was saying. The real big difference is who is doing the talking.

Si,

Please enlighten us. My dial-up service is unable to play the vid in this lifetime.

RW

HH's book on Essentials teaches one turn -- maintaining weight on the old outside ski until the fall line. One more time -- the book teaches one turn, where the weight shift occurs at the fall line, not at release when one is crossing the fall line, but when one is heading downhill vertically. The skier, when doing this type of turn, maintains weight on the OLD outside ski while initiating the new turn, does not push the new outside ski nor transfer weight to it, and allows the weight to shift itself to the outside ski only after the skier is well into the fall line. HH describes several reasons for focusing on this type of turn: to solve the problem of pivoting/pushing/skidding (he wants everyone to do arc-to=arc skiing), and to solve the A-frame problem of knock-kneed skiers.

Bode's video does not exhibit this type of turn.

Bode's video is available for free on line and anybody can get it. You have to buy the other video with a book I think, but I don't know because all the Chapters Book stores I've checked out are too busy trying to sell ACBAES 1 and 2 before they put the new book on the shelf.

HH turn and bode turn are the same

I would not be one to insult your knowledge of PMTS/Essentials - but are you sure about that?

Si I can understand how one could come to the conclusion that Liquidfeet came too. I knew what he meant even if he couldn't explain the pressure transfer all that well.

Where I would beg to differ with him is that Bode is very much skiing this the essentials way even if that is not what is coming out of his mouth.

The very first thing that is said in the Bode video is this is information is to help an advanced intermediate progress towards expert skiing. With that in mind, the Bode video is a very good video in my estimation.

The Bode video does nothing in my mind to subtract or differ significantly from the Book of Essentials. The Book of Essentials is aimed not at advanced intermediates but at skiers who have achieve a high level of skiing already.

Bode need not talk about movements of the center of mass from the fall line using pressure control type pedaling like Harb does because Bode is quite clearly targeting a different level of skier.

Bode is targeting the intermediate carver who already does not pivot but moves laterally using rotation and inside hip down movements with minimal pole usage. We are trying to compare different teaching styles to different levels or skiers. I see no connection on that level but I also have no problem reconciling the two so called contrasts.

I only watched a segment about halfway through and it looked very similar. Didn't have sound so I have no idea what if anything was being said over the sequence. And despite what many think I am no PMTS expert

PS. Always loved your signature

Thanks.

Most is similar, but there are significant differences - especially surrounding how said turns are explained and which parts are emphasized. As Pierre said, one is not supposed to detract from the other.

Later

GREG

I read the book cover to cover, took notes on each page. That's how. The beginning chapter covers the whole turn, then each following chapter covers individual elements of the turn. The delayed release (aka weighted release) is not discussed in each subsequent chapter, but it's there in the turn as a whole, which you will see if you read the book more closely.

I have a theory on ski technique as a whole: Until you can execute [whatever technique] correctly (meaning extremely high level of proficiency), your goals should be to learn it versus discredit it. Once you have learned it to a high level of competence, then you have the freedom to discard what you have learned in favor of something better. Few on this forum are at that level. Take that how you will.
Later
GREG

I'm an HH fan-but, with regards to 'Essentials' I think liquid feet has a point-it's a book dedicated to the relentless perfection of one turn (one release, position etc).

I've always wondered why this Book instead of HH's expert 2 book gets the most focus as I think that, except for a handful of technical purists, expert 2 serves up a better-and more diverse learning model. If someone expresses an interest in new style technique to me-I usually lend them my expert 2 book-I just think it has a lot more to offer to both the instructor and the student.

Any thoughts on why Essentials (over Expert 2) has become to premier book in the PMTS milieu??

Oh-and I thought Bode and HH's turns were the same because they're both on Head skis

Liam

Essentials is not a strict progression like was presented in the Expert Skier books. Harald himself will agree that Expert Skier 2 is the book that is jammed with an incredible amount of information. Essentials presents high level skiing in terms of the movements that are usually present - instead of teaching a progression to get to high level skiing. Essentials gives you a snapshot of some of the most important skills/movements present in good skiing, and shows you how to develop them. It does not however, show you how to start as a beginner and teach you all the way to the highest levels of skiing as the Expert Skier books did. Essentials (in my mind) is a much more versatile teaching tool versus a strict progression. I will leave it at that since this thread is not really about the virtues of Harb's books.

Later

GREG

I don't think I countered LF's statement. I simply said if you (collective) can't perform a technique properly to a high level, then discarding it is irrelevent, since you don't understand what it is that you are discrediting. Only once you have learned something, understand it, and can perform it, are you knowledgeable enough to make a judgemental decision on it.

Later

GREG

Applause!

Essentials teaches what HH feels are the six essential movements needed for solid ski technique. They are universally applicable and beneficial regardless of the skiers current level. The theory is that if you are an intermediate, advanced, or expert skier and begin practicing the essential movements your skiing will improve. Its that simple.

Essentials is not about a single type of turn because the essentials are part of every turn (PMTS point of view). Take a quick look at page 11 and read what is written about Frame 5. That is the sample turn (referenced throughout the book) and that's not a weighted release. Now, check out what is written on page 26 for frame 6.

Also, Essentials teaches a release that occurs at the bottom of the turn. See the diagrams on pages 66, 130, and 146 to see where the release occurs.

This is true of so many areas of life. Perhaps all.

Well said, Greg.

I think there is a corollary to this, as well:

Until we have context for a situation, passing judgment is foolish and serves only to excite emotion, not to clarify understanding.

There are various ways of saying this that have become well-known quotes over the years:

"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes."

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance."

...and many more.

For purposes of growth and learning, we can state our assumptions and then our conclusions based on them, but when we assume our postulates to be hard facts and thus judge others, we lose the debate.

In "Essentials," HH teaches an early-release/late-weight-transfer turn. The two elements are not mutually exclusive. When one is in the "High C" portion of the turn (when one is "upside down"), in this book, HH insists one keep the weight on the OLD outside ski/NEW inside ski and allow the weight to slowly move to the new outside ski only as one's skis point down the fall line. I think his goal is to eliminate the habit of pushing the new outside ski at the tip top of the turn (or at any point in the turn) to help skiers set up the carve very very early and not lose it to a skidding outside ski.

Clearly this is an unfamiliar turn, and I'm not sure why he decided to focus on it in this book instead of the usual weight transfer turn, which he spends lots of time on in the Expert Skier II book. But I'm going to work on this late-weight-transfer turn in the next few weeks and see if I can master it.

Along with the odd timing of the weight transfer HH focuses on all the usual suspects -- pulling the feet back at neutral to get weight forward, tipping instead of twisting the skis to achieve turn initiation, focus on tipping the inside ski (without lifting it, in this book) to guide the outside ski, angulating and countering for balance, avoiding inside tip lead at neutral, progressively increasing tip angles and body angles till the end of the turn, flattening the skis to achieve the release (no weight shift yet!!), riding the rebound of the ski ("float), and so on. Bode appears to be doing all this, but it looks to me like he transfers his weight as he releases his skis.

This interpretation is different than what I got from the book. Would you happen to have the relevant page(s) handy?

LiquidFeet: One more time -- the book teaches one turn, where the weight shift occurs at the fall line, not at release when one is crossing the fall line, but when one is heading downhill vertically. The skier, when doing this type of turn, maintains weight on the OLD outside ski while initiating the new turn, does not push the new outside ski nor transfer weight to it, and allows the weight to shift itself to the outside ski only after the skier is well into the fall line.

Why would anyone maintain weight on the OLD outside ski while initiating a new turn? Why wait until the fall line to transfer weight to the new outside ski? This better be an exercise (to avoid the dreaded pivot or push of the new outside ski), otherwise it makes zero sense.

What makes you think that? It's fun. I've played with the extremes (and the rest of the spectrum) a bit (thanks, Rick!). There are reasons in terms of how the turn shapes differently doing this as opposed to the opposite extreme. Another is that it forces the skier to make some movements that are useful in breaking old habits (such as lifting that ski). I bet others can come up with other reasons.

Nothing wrong with it...

Tom, I don't see this as the main technique in the book, that's why I asked for the page(s). However, its a fun way to make a turn.

OK, guys, I've gone back through the Essentials book page by page. HH gives mixed messages, despite how carefully he controlled the wording of his explanations. I can now understand why people reading the book see it the usual way, as if one is being told to (a) place weight on the new stance foot at transition, and also as I originally read it, (b) delaying the weight transition till the fall line.

I've now found the quotes that support interpretation (a). No problem there.

I've also identified the quotes that originally caught my attention and led me to believe HH wanted the skier to delay the weight change (b). Here they are, just so you know I'm not crazy:

Chapter 3, Flexing and Extending: p. 79: "When your skis have arced until they are pointing straight downhill, slowly stand up by extending your legs.
p. 85 "Think of this action as reaching the foot to the snow [referring to extending the outside leg just after transition], not as pushing away from the snow."
p. 86: picture caption, referring to frames 5-7, approaching the fall line: "Extending the stance leg is merely to maintain contact."
and "Once the skis are in or beyond the fall line, into the Lower-C portion of the arc, the outside leg will become weighted or loaded."
p. 87: "Coming into the load portion of the arc, at the fall line and lower, the outside leg is going to have to support the loads generated by arcing."

p. 96: "The effort to increase edge and body angles should come from flexing and tipping with the inside leg, and the outside leg should only extend enough to keep that ski in contact with the snow."

p. 115: picture caption: "Frame 4: Balance on outside ski." [Note skier is beyond fall line, towards the end of the turn.]

Well, that's about it. I now believe that HH in this book is advocating a slow gentle weight transfer which reaches full force at or just after the fall line. He is simply trying to get skiers not to forcefully push the new outside ski into the snow right at transition to achieve the weight transfer, because that creates the up-transition stuff, and generates skidding.

I'm still going to work on mastering this fall line-to fall-line turn anyway this weekend.

Keep in mind that in the top of the arc the CoM is moving downhill of the skis creating a situation where the force (weight) on the skis is very light. The loading doesn't really start until the fall line. The idea is to avoid early extension of the new outside leg to create pressure before the fall line. So, the book advocates a progressive extension of the outside leg.

I'm not sure that the weight transfer matters as the essentials are the same regardless of the weighting (100% outside, 100% inside, or some combination thereof).