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Video for analysis / cgeib / Loveland_Nov2007 - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
It seems funny to me why we can't just call cgeibs turns good and let it go at that? Some feel they must impart there own skiing style or preferences on a particular skiing clip, as if these are the only turns Chris owns? If he skied one way somebody would want him to ski another! Come on now, these are nice turns and appropriate for the snow conditions (soft with good grip), speed (moderate) turn radius (medium). Chris's turns were well within the scope of good functional balanced skiing! Ten great skiers could ski that same pitch, radius, speed, tempo, and conditions and we would see ten diffferent images, all of which could be very functional, depending on the skiers' intent, equipment set-up, alignment, build, etc.

IMO, great turns! nuff said. Level III pass, hired, I'd like to ski with him!

PS: Remember me when we are at the bar Chris, I like those expensive beers!
Ummm... bud? Chris asked for feedback and nitpicks. Most of us admitted that's what we were posting. If/when I ski as well as cgeib, I'm pretty happy, believe me. But, that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement, right? Knowing Chris, he's insatiable for more ideas for improvement, and completely able to make his own decisions about what to play with in his skiing given input.

For my part, I appreciate more input rather than less. I'll make my own choices about what to consider.
post #32 of 54
Sorry guys, I was just trying to see the good in Chris's turns! Don't want to rain on any critique parades.....carry on!

Hey Chris...... YOU SUCK! really good
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Sorry guys, I was just trying to see the good in Chris's turns! Don't want to rain on any critique parades.....carry on!

Hey Chris...... YOU SUCK! really good
...and there's certainly a lot there to see that's good!!!
post #34 of 54
Bud, you were right on one count: critique the turns being made, not the ones you think they should make.
post #35 of 54
OK, I am bored and wanna talk skiing.

Chris the last couple turns you made on the second segment. Notice as you push the foot through as you finish you will see your foot/ski come off the snow.

solution: As you make the move to push the foot forward DO NOT shift the weight to the other foot. Keep the pressure on the downhill foot as you push it forward. This movement will do two things, square up the hips and pull the hips into the new turn. A continuation of the movement will set up early counter into the new turn and move your extension more perpendicular to the slope pressuring the edges earlier in your turns. This will put you in a better position to balance on your edges before the fall line and shape the top of the turn how you choose.

If you can't beat'em join'em.
post #36 of 54
Thread Starter 
Heluva;
Thanks for the link! Not having qualified as of yet, I don't have a copy of the rules myself. However, I gather Tsavo has the only official stock for distribution

SoftSnowGuy;
Thanks for the suggestion on the hands, I'll test that tension thing out!
At some point maybe I'll get some video of those retraction turns, that was not what I was trying for here.
Why/how does counter cause the tail of the ski to grip better?


dd223,
I agree, there is much to work on and a lot of room for improvement.
Hmmm ...another voter for more angulation, counter and really bending the skis.
Does the greater angulation, energy, and weight to the outside ski to bend it more, leave me with the same turns or will I be making a different ones at that point.


Bush,
Uh ...WHAT?:
I dunno, maybe another thread is in order for this.


Bud,
"If you can't beat'em join'em" ...Not even a cheap beer for you!
I'm seeing in the last turn the outside ski washed out and if I wouldn't have moved to the inside ski I would have moved to the inside hip.
Maybe its a one thing leads to another situation you are describing, but I'm not sure I see the cycle you are. I can give it a try here soon enough.

Thanks,

Chris
post #37 of 54
hmmmm...

Pretty decent turns, for a guy from OHIO....

But with all the things beginning to go wrong, I get the feeling something is about to happen.

If I had to take a WAG at it, I'd have to guess that just after this footage ends, something is going to go very wrong. Perhaps a hung edge, getting spun around, and while heading toward the trees, blowing a shoe, resulting in a pretty spectacular crash! :::

Am I close, Chris?
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Bud,
"If you can't beat'em join'em" ...Not even a cheap beer for you!
I'm seeing in the last turn the outside ski washed out and if I wouldn't have moved to the inside ski I would have moved to the inside hip.
Maybe its a one thing leads to another situation you are describing, but I'm not sure I see the cycle you are. I can give it a try here soon enough.
My suggestions coincide with what I was seeing in the clips posted from last season and the suggestions offered there.

just as a tip, think about falling into the new turn a bit more instead of falling into the old turn.
post #39 of 54
Chris, I agree with everyone - nice skiing.

A slightly different idea on the transition - What do you think about starting your inside leg extension earlier? It seems to me when you turn more across the fall line (longer, more complete turns) there is some park and ride happening as well as the pressure issues late in the current turn and early in the next turn others have mentioned.

Earlier inside leg extension should reduce/eliminate the park and ride, help you manage pressure through the bottom of the current turn and start pressuring the new outside ski earlier in the next turn. Just my 2 cents.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

dd223,
I agree, there is much to work on and a lot of room for improvement.
Hmmm ...another voter for more angulation, counter and really bending the skis.
Does the greater angulation, energy, and weight to the outside ski to bend it more, leave me with the same turns or will I be making a different ones at that point.

Well, if you change your skiing, of course you will not be making the same turns. If you are looking to improve, then you necessarily want to make some changes to your turns. If you are asking if it is possible to maintain the same turn shape while adding counter, angulation, and power, then I would say yes.

I would describe the turns in your video as GS turns. It is definitely possible to gain more energy and rebound from your turn exits and to begin bending the ski earlier in the turn without necessarily changing the shape.

That said, I'd like to see video of you making short or SL turns. That setup certainly allows for it (I have the same skis and boots) and I think it would show that the level of energy you are putting into your turns is not sufficient to maintain a carve in a shorter turn.

Keep improving and have fun.

G
post #41 of 54
Chris,
Was this the stuff you were doing the day I saw you there with Bong?
If I may I would offer and idea that would add polish instead of changing your style. Which BTW is pretty clean in person.
The leg steering that could be added in the last third, along with a longer transition from one set of edges to the next (ile, or olf, happening sooner and over a longer portion of the turn). Think about your legs being a slinky toy and the shift happening like that.
In combination these will eliminate the park & ride and the inside leg not remaining parallel with the outside one.
post #42 of 54
Chris,

I was out today and thinking of you. I think your skiing is solid and thought so last year at ESA.

Mike Rogan was bugging me about my stance and maintaining a constant width, whatever I may choose. I am still trying to get that into my skiing and still find it hard to do. In speaking today with one of the instructors, he suggested that I distribute weight to both skis more. It looks like you do that, while I am big on getting 'on' the outside ski.

I think that my stance adds to my fore/aft balance problem. You appear to be centered nicely.

Great skiing Chris and hope to ski with you again soon.

bz
post #43 of 54
Thread Starter 
VSP,
Ha, now that is funny ...a guy from TEXAS, "qualifying" turns of a guy from OHIO!
But what else can I say, "You make pretty decent turns yourself ...for a guy from TEXAS!"
Yep, I blew up

Bud,
Thanks for the clarification. I'll give the clips further study.

JRN,
Yes, I agree about the pressure issues and stalling.
Hadn't thought of the ILE commencing earlier, but I'll give it a try! Seems the idea would be constant motion and once the inside leg gets to its shortest you'd like to see the motion begin reversing.

dd223,
Yes, the latter. Thanks for the follow-up.
If I get other video, I'll put it up!
I will continue having fun and working to improve

Jasp,
No, this was another day, and Tom Burch shot this footage of me.
That slinky thing is sure an interesting visual, not sure I'm relating to it right off, but I'll keep stewing on it.
Can you elaborate why you'd dial in ILS in the last 1/3 of the turn and the changes you would expect to result.

Paul,
It would be great to see some of your skiing on video too! I'll bet you're making headway if you've been after Mike's suggestions for a year now.
Looks might be deceiving then, fore/aft could use improvement in these turns ...and you're right, I do get on the inside ski, but too much
Will you be at Stowe next week/weekend?
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Think about your legs being a slinky toy and the shift happening like that.
JASP, I like that analogy never heard that before but it conjures up the sensations like a slinky walking down the stairway very nicely!!
post #45 of 54
I'm trying to figure out what it means, too... care to explain it in your words, bud?
post #46 of 54
Imagine a slinky traveling down a stairway, the top, moving from one step to the next, topples over the base, which then moves closer to the base then farther away from the base toward the next step, and so on.

Now imagine the skier's COM moving from the inside of one turn, closer to the feet, then over them to the inside of the next turn, then the feet pass the COM going down the hill, then the COM passes the feet, and so on.
post #47 of 54
Hmmm... interesting! Thanks, bud (and JASP), I'm going to play with that in my head, and then next week when I'm out next...
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Paul,
It would be great to see some of your skiing on video too! I'll bet you're making headway if you've been after Mike's suggestions for a year now.
Looks might be deceiving then, fore/aft could use improvement in these turns ...and you're right, I do get on the inside ski, but too much
Will you be at Stowe next week/weekend?
My groomed skiing is still on the weak side. Mikes 'concepts' have helped me a lot, however I am still trapped in some old school stuff. Chris, the discussion we had at Stowe helped.

I'll be at Stowe on Friday only. Not doing ESA, at least not this session. I understand you will not be there.

As for a video of me, I am being real nice to crank. He's got a steady hand.
post #49 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
I'll be at Stowe on Friday only. Not doing ESA, at least not this session. I understand you will not be there.
Hmmm... I am planning to be there! I submitted my registration and paid my tuition, so I hope I'm not the only one that expects me to be there

I'm heading up Wednesday, so I'll see you Friday:
post #50 of 54
SSH, Bud, Cgleb,
The CoM moving over was not really where I was going but it is an intersting idea. For me it conjures up the idea of going inverted though.
Here's the image I was going for...
...Take the slinky toy and hold it in both hands, palms up. It should be an arch. Now lower one hand while raising the other and feel how progressive the mass moves from both hands to one. Reverse the hand position and feel the mass shift to the other hand. Take this feeling into skiing by starting off balanced on both feet (centered), if you choose to use ILF (cross under) do so progressively to produce the same sensation you felt with the toy. Now try this with OLE (cross over). Eventually combine both (cross through). Like the toy, the side losing weight should feel progressively lighter almost to the point that the ski lifts off the snow. Like the toy the side gaining weight should feel like it is being pushed deeper into the snow. Add to this the fact that momentum and gravity will do a lot of this shifting and it becomes a balancing act to keep the shift very progressive. So regardless of the method you choose to get the CoM across the skis and into the next turn, the progressive quality creates the constant movement and eliminates any park and ride.

Cgleb,
Bud started another thread about ILS through the transition. What I am suggesting is the idea that we use leg steering (at a constant rate) during the entire turn. Using it during the last third produces a more passive transition (still a slinky move but it doesn't require as much active flexion/extention). Another benefit is the inside half of the body remains more centered (hip doesn't drop as far back).
Like I said before, improvement at your level is a matter of refining and polishing, not so much about isolating and developing new skills. The trick to the slinky analogy is that even though I have included advice about specifics, the focus is more on the performance of the maneuver. The advice about ILS is to continue it throughout the turn should be seen the same way. Changes in the DIRT not wholesale changes in movements themselves.
post #51 of 54
About that slinky, JASP... I feel a fairly sudden direction change due to the mass and stored energy of the slinky, and I think you're suggesting that we play with staying more progressive than that, right?

Thanks for the clarification, though... that helps me "see" what you mean...
post #52 of 54
Ohio,
Back to the video for analysis. I Don't know what you had in mind as your goal or outcome for that run, so it is always more difficult to discuss.
The idea of working above the fall line more effectively has been addressed and I wanted to comment on that. As a thought, try to spend as much time in the transition on your new edges at the top of the turn as you do on your old edges at the bottom of the turn. Your movement across the ski is a bit more lateral/down the hill and you seem to get to the fall line pretty quick. Don't be in such a hurry to get to the apex of the arc, let that happen as a result of where you move in the transition and give the skis a chance to shape the top of the turn.
Keep up the good work,
Greg L
post #53 of 54
Steve,
Sorry to get back to you so late but my net crashed. The focus should not be on doing an exercise, it should be on incorporating a longer transition in our skiing. Apex to Apex being the maximum transition.
Here's an idea that may help, the slinky will shift it's mass slower if we move our hands slower. Explore how slowly you can make that shift while still maintaining your line.
post #54 of 54
Thanks, JASP, that's confirmation of where my thinking was taking me...

...now, I just have to get out on the snow again. Tomorrow!
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