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Head Superheat 3 vs. Intuition

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
After speaking to Billy Kaplan on the phone and getting some boot recommendations, I have a pair of Head S12 boots with Superheat 3 liners on the way (more details in this thread). Head says that the Superheat liner is "fully moldable" but I'm wondering how they compare to the Intuition Power Wrap liners as far as performance, comfort, and how well they conform to your feet.
post #2 of 24
The info I've seen, the boot looks like a typical stock alpine tounge style boot. I didn't see any refence to heating the liner. Their interpratation of "fully moldable" may just be standard fitting or maybe it's a version of a ZipFits. It dosen't look like a thermofit:. I guess you'll find out when the boot arrives>
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
This review at bootfitters.com refers to the superheat as being "heat-moldable." I assumed that referred to actually heating the liner. I also found some discussion of using an oven to heat them, and a few people who said that they would eventually conform to your foot without heating them.
post #4 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
This review at bootfitters.com refers to the superheat as being "heat-moldable." I assumed that referred to actually heating the liner. I also found some discussion of using an oven to heat them, and a few people who said that they would eventually conform to your foot without heating them.
I believe the Super Heat 3 liner is the same liner that was in the Head RD 96. When my were new they were heated and then placed in my boots while still hot and I wore them for about 20 minutes.

These are nothing like a Intuition or zip fit Liner more of a "sock" liner like that comes in many plugs but is thicker then the Atomic RT, Dobie, or new Head Raptor liner.


This heating and forming to your foot greatly reduces the break-in fit time which otherwise takes wearing them around the house and 4-7 days of skiing on them.

I would not really consider this a "custom" heat molded liner like and Intuition or Zip-fit since it has a conventional tongue and is really a very conventional liner with most of the heat moldedable material strictly in the ankle and heel area.
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks. So, basically*, since I was expecting to spend ~$600-650 total, and the boots and liners (through the TGR deal) would only total $300 (+ the price of fitting with Billy), I'd be crazy not to get the Intuitions.: That pretty much confirms what I was thinking, since I didn't find anyone saying how great the Head liner is.


*assuming the shell fit is right
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
Thanks. So, basically*, since I was expecting to spend ~$600-650 total, and the boots and liners (through the TGR deal) would only total $300 (+ the price of fitting with Billy), I'd be crazy not to get the Intuitions.: That pretty much confirms what I was thinking, since I didn't find anyone saying how great the Head liner is.


*assuming the shell fit is right
Actually i loved the Head liner. It is very well constructed and I love the fabric they use it really +grabs your foot . no lsiding around on it, lus the grab handles on each side make it great getting your boots on.

Intuitions are going to warmer but I just can't do a liner that thick. I am now in the Raptor 150 and the liner is extremely thin in the forefoot. I am not sure Intutions provide the kind of performance a regular liner does, but if you are purely a recreational skier looking for comfort and warmth above all else maybe it is the way to go.

I have not ever gone the intution route so you may want to get some feedback from someone who has skied them!
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
I was planning on wearing the boots around my house for a few days to see if there were any hot spots anyway. One consistent comment I've seen is that higher-end Head liners are stiffer and take more time to pack out than a lot of other brands. As for my skill level, I like to think I'm a high-intermediate, but I'm always looking to improve and don't want to end up being a chronic intermediate; I think I'd be in over my head in a boot as stiff as yours. I wouldn't put comfort above performance on my list of priorities, but I've never skied in a boot that was great in either respect.

Your comments are the first ones I've seen about the intuitions that weren't hugely positive(the custom liner is 6mm thick vs 9 for the power wrap fwiw). I was leaning toward the intuitions because most people here and at TGR seem to describe them as higher performance/better fit than just about any factory liners while still being relatively comfortable and very warm. A few even said they didn't lose a noticeable amount of performance to custom foam liners.
post #8 of 24
Without more info on the liner components, it's hard to tell how their molding works. My first quess is it's something like a ZipFit, they can be molded heat, or on a warm enough day the heat of your foot can mold them, but it's not a thermofit. I would think that if it were a thermofit they would say so-and probablly cost more.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I have not ever gone the intution route so you may want to get some feedback from someone who has skied them!
Intuitions are defintly a high performance fit No offence to Atomicman, he offers his opinion, at least he says he hasn't used them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
Your comments are the first ones I've seen about the intuitions that weren't hugely positive(the custom liner is 6mm thick vs 9 for the power wrap fwiw). I was leaning toward the intuitions because most people here and at TGR seem to describe them as higher performance/better fit than just about any factory liners while still being relatively comfortable and very warm. A few even said they didn't lose a noticeable amount of performance to custom foam liners.
Some of the difference between the 2 liners is going to be the volume difference between your foor and the shell. But IMHO you want to go w/ the power wrap. As far as the thickness differences mentioned by Atomicman, material will expand to directlly contact the shell and your foot, putting them nearly in direct contact w/ each other. I don't believe the thickness is going make any difference in performance
post #10 of 24
As far as the performance issue goes, there is a reason plug race boots have such a thin liner and put your foot as close to shell as possible and that is all about performance.

i have never ever seen a racer in Intuitions or Zipfits. if they had the same performance as manny stock liners, racers would be using them.

Although you might find an exception, again I have never seen any racer in them and racing is all about performance, but as I said earlier, if you are a recreational skier and your foremost concern is comfort and warmth, a thermofit liner like the Intuition or Zip might be just the ticket for you.

I am sure they are a big profit center for ski shops. If they assist you in attaining your goals for your boots then by all means go for it!

But after skiing in plugs for the last 4 or 5 years, i will never go back to a shelf boot with a thick liner.
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
As far as the performance issue goes, there is a reason plug race boots have such a thin liner and put your foot as close to shell as possible and that is all about performance.

i have never ever seen a racer in Intuitions or Zipfits. if they had the same performance as manny stock liners, racers would be using them.

Although you might find an exception, again I have never seen any racer in them and racing is all about performance, but as I said earlier, if you are a recreational skier and your foremost concern is comfort and warmth, a thermofit liner like the Intuition or Zip might be just the ticket for you.

I am sure they are a big profit center for ski shops. If they assist you in attaining your goals for your boots then by all means go for it!

But after skiing in plugs for the last 4 or 5 years, i will never go back to a shelf boot with a thick liner.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree

Racers live in there own world

You imply comfort/warm are in incompatable w/ performance. Maybe it would help if you could quantify what you mean by performance.

You do a good job of talking about something you've never tried.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altaman View Post
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree

Racers live in there own world

You imply comfort/warm are in incompatable w/ performance. Maybe it would help if you could quantify what you mean by performance.

You do a good job of talking about something you've never tried.
Calm down friend! why are you getting so defensive.

I believe I have given a fair and balanced response to the question at hand.

I have spoken with many expert bootfitters. i don't think after all the years i have skied and been involved with bootfitting with myself and my sons that I have to actually ski in the Intuition to understand them. I can't even stand a retail shelf boot with a normal liner.

there is no way that all that material between your foot and the shell can possibly have the kind of responsiveness that a minimalist liner with your foot as close as possible to the shell can and that is what I prefer.

I have said over and over if his main goal is comfort and warmth and you don't race that the Intuition is probably a great option.

I have not said he should not use them! On the contrary, i said if they fit his goals and he likes them by all means use them.

they are not for me. But I never siad they are horrible or no one else should use them.

Have you skied in a Plug boot???? I will assume not. How would you know what the difference is unless you have skied in them:???

Around here though, the main people i see in Intutions are spolied rich housewife's scurrying their spoiled little brats to the hill from the minivan who just care about thier looks and that their feet are warm & comfortable.

actually that's not true, I know a coupl;e of very good skiers who use them, but their shop is the biggest promoter of Intutions in the area, so if they didn't have them after all the hyoping they do, it would be an embarassment on the hill wehen they ran into their customers!

I truly hope you love your liners and have a great season!!!!:
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altaman View Post
Without more info on the liner components, it's hard to tell how their molding works. My first quess is it's something like a ZipFit, they can be molded heat, or on a warm enough day the heat of your foot can mold them, but it's not a thermofit. I would think that if it were a thermofit they would say so-and probablly cost more.
I just told him how the molding works!!! I have the same liner in my last boot:
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Calm down friend! why are you getting so defensive.

I believe I have given a fair and balanced response to the question at hand.

I have spoken with many expert bootfitters. i don't think after all the years i have skied and been involved with bootfitting with myself and my sons that I have to actually ski in the Intuition to understand them. I can't even stand a retail shelf boot with a normal liner.

there is no way that all that material between your foot and the shell can possibly have the kind of responsiveness that a minimalist liner with your foot as close as possible to the shell can and that is what I prefer.

I have said over and over if his main goal is comfort and warmth and you don't race that the Intuition is probably a great option.

I have not said he should not use them! On the contrary, i said if they fit his goals and he likes them by all means use them.

they are not for me. But I never siad they are horrible or no one else should use them.

Have you skied in a Plug boot???? I will assume not. How would you know what the difference is unless you have skied in them:???

Around here though, the main people i see in Intutions are spolied rich housewife's scurrying their spoiled little brats to the hill from the minivan who just care about thier looks and that their feet are warm & comfortable.

actually that's not true, I know a coupl;e of very good skiers who use them, but their shop is the biggest promoter of Intutions in the area, so if they didn't have them after all the hyoping they do, it would be an embarassment on the hill wehen they ran into their customers!

I truly hope you love your liners and have a great season!!!!:
Like I said; We'll just agree to disagree:
post #15 of 24
So have you ever skied in a plug?

What boot do you ski in?

What ski do you prefer most if the time?
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
there is no way that all that material between your foot and the shell can possibly have the kind of responsiveness that a minimalist liner with your foot as close as possible to the shell can and that is what I prefer.
I understand the logic behind this, but the amount of material between your foot and shell seems more like a function of shell size than liner type. Since the space between your foot and the shell is constant, I would think you'd want as much material as possible stuffed into that space to minimize the play between your foot and the shell; some people even talk about going up a size (as compared to your shell size) with the intuition liners for a more performance-oriented fit.

I don't quite see how a thicker liner in the same boot moves your foot farther from the shell and/or is inherently inferior to a thinner liner. If (just making these numbers up) you have 9mm between your foot and the boot in a given spot, I would think a 6mm thick liner would have a lot more play than a 9 or 10mm thick liner.

heh, this thread is doing a good job of keeping me thinking while I wait for my boots to get here:
post #17 of 24
The SH3 liner is cold. I have not had never had cold feet before the the SH3.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
I understand the logic behind this, but the amount of material between your foot and shell seems more like a function of shell size than liner type. Since the space between your foot and the shell is constant, I would think you'd want as much material as possible stuffed into that space to minimize the play between your foot and the shell; some people even talk about going up a size (as compared to your shell size) with the intuition liners for a more performance-oriented fit.

I don't quite see how a thicker liner in the same boot moves your foot farther from the shell and/or is inherently inferior to a thinner liner. If (just making these numbers up) you have 9mm between your foot and the boot in a given spot, I would think a 6mm thick liner would have a lot more play than a 9 or 10mm thick liner.

heh, this thread is doing a good job of keeping me thinking while I wait for my boots to get here:
Well yes and no. I guess it depends on your staring point. You are right it can be a function of shell size but when they heat the liner were is all the material that your foot takes up going to go. And yes i have heard folks sometimes have to upsize to get there foot in a shell with an Intuition.

So my question to you is did you fit the boot for a stock liner or for an Intution liner

In my case in the Head Raptor 150 or the Head RD 96 with the SH3, when my foot was put in a 27 shell, barefoot w/ my footbed in the boot, my foot touched the shell everywhere!

We then ground the shell to accomodate my foot so that there is no excessive liner material anywhere but around the ankle area, tongue. But the shell is ground inside to fit my foot exactly.

So, it is just a different concept. if your boot fits with the standard liner that (let's make up some number) is 3mm thick and you stick a 6mm intution in there and heat mold it, where is all thet thickness going to go.

You guys can't really be trying to tell me a rec ski boot with an Intution liner has the same performance, sensitivity and pure power as a plug with a minimal liner::

I have skied in plenty of rec or rec/race boots with a lot of liner material. It just does not work for me!

And yes the SH3 is not warm! Didn't i say about ten times now:?

By the way how, does going to a bigger shell with an Intution make it more performance oriented?
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh View Post
The SH3 liner is cold. I have not had never had cold feet before the the SH3.
The liner is certainly not that warm, but other contributors can be buckled too tight and other fit issues
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
That makes sense. I think I see what you're saying now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
You guys can't really be trying to tell me a rec ski boot with an Intution liner has the same performance, sensitivity and pure power as a plug with a minimal liner::
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a non-plug boot with any liner would outperform a plug boot with just about any liner, but that's not really the issue here. I'm just trying to figure out if the intuition would give a performance improvement over the SH3 liner that comes with the S12 (since it's pretty much been accepted that the intuition would be warmer and more comfortable).

fwiw, the only 24 shell I've every had my feet in was a pair of rental boots that I traded in after one run because three toes on each foot were numb before I got to the top of the lift. My local shop doesn't stock anything smaller than 25.5 and I'd have to pay close to retail, in advance, for any boot that I wanted in a 24. I figured (and the people who responded to the other thread seemed to agree) the money would be better spent on a boot that should be a close fit (if the boots I bought are totally wrong, I can return them), a set of intuition liners, and a session with a reputable boot fitter (Billy Kaplan).

Quote:
By the way how, does going to a bigger shell with an Intution make it more performance oriented?
I don't think anyone said it does. What I was saying is some people get an intuition liner that's a size bigger than their shell size to make sure there isn't any extra space.
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
That makes sense. I think I see what you're saying now.



I don't think anyone is suggesting that a non-plug boot with any liner would outperform a plug boot with just about any liner, but that's not really the issue here. I'm just trying to figure out if the intuition would give a performance improvement over the SH3 liner that comes with the S12 (since it's pretty much been accepted that the intuition would be warmer and more comfortable).

fwiw, the only 24 shell I've every had my feet in was a pair of rental boots that I traded in after one run because three toes on each foot were numb before I got to the top of the lift. My local shop doesn't stock anything smaller than 25.5 and I'd have to pay close to retail, in advance, for any boot that I wanted in a 24. I figured (and the people who responded to the other thread seemed to agree) the money would be better spent on a boot that should be a close fit (if the boots I bought are totally wrong, I can return them), a set of intuition liners, and a session with a reputable boot fitter (Billy Kaplan).


I don't think anyone said it does. What I was saying is some people get an intuition liner that's a size bigger than their shell size to make sure there isn't any extra space.
Nick, I really think you & I have been on the same page the whole discussion. It was Altaman that got his panties twisted!
post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
so, the boots got here today and have been wearing them around the house. The shell fit is good, and I know the liners will pack out, but they fit like a vice. At first they just feel tight, with a little wiggle room for my toes. Then, about 15 minutes later my toes start to get numb. By 25 minutes, all my toes and the balls of my feet are numb.

They also came with a couple extra parts. There are four curved pieces of plastic that seem to slip into the liner in the Achilles tendon area (I assume these are supposed to reduce heel lift). Then, there's two big, flat pieces of plastic that say "front plate" on them, along with two screws for each plate. The plates have three holes, labeled "+28," "+36," and "+48."

I think I am going to go with the Intuition liners, just because I haven't seen anything negative from people who are much better skiers than me and have used them.

Should the numbness go away as the liners pack out and will the intuition liners give me a little more space in the toe box? Also, can any of you guys shed any light as to what the "front plates" are, are supposed to do, or how they attach to the boots?
post #23 of 24
Nick: Sorry don't know what the "front plate" peices are for. The numbness is normal w/ typical liners. One of the nice things w/ Intuitions is the toe box the put over the toes druing fitting, frees-up the toes nicely. With Intuitions you don't have the painfull breakin and the fit is one of the best.

Let us know how it goes. Good Luck.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick29 View Post
so, the boots got here today and have been wearing them around the house. The shell fit is good, and I know the liners will pack out, but they fit like a vice. At first they just feel tight, with a little wiggle room for my toes. Then, about 15 minutes later my toes start to get numb. By 25 minutes, all my toes and the balls of my feet are numb.

<snip>

I think I am going to go with the Intuition liners, just because I haven't seen anything negative from people who are much better skiers than me and have used them.

Should the numbness go away as the liners pack out and will the intuition liners give me a little more space in the toe box?

Nick. Oh man -- solve my problems for me, and I'll sit around and watch! :

My boots do/did/do the same thing as yours, about 15 minutes and numb, and I've worn my boots for a year. I just got them back from the bootfitter today. He trimmed down the sides of my custom footbed a bit, which was curling up around the lateral sides of the front of my foot, compressing it too much. I wore the boots around the house this evening and they were much improved over what they were before. Right toes and ball of foot went numb in about 40 minutes. Left foot just tingled slightly in that time. The boots have been punched wider at the forefoot, so I'm thinking that perhaps the issue now is less compression laterally and perhaps is more a circulation compression issue at the top of my foot -- the "flaps" in the shell seem to press down there at the front of the ankle joint, but ironically it causes no pain there...??? Such a puzzle.

I, too, and toying seriously with Intuition liners from my local bootfitter. I'm still unsure that has the best chance of solving my troubles. Let me know if you have success with them. I'll be waiting!

Good luck,
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