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Man dies from fall off Heavenly ski lift - Page 2

post #31 of 50
He is young and he did something stupid and he died. Each day our papers have articles about kids in the 18 to 20'ish group putting a car into the woods; some live and some die.

However .... if he did the same act ... reaching down to knead a leg cramp .. and .. he had his foot up on the rest ... and ... the bar was down .. he would still probably be here today.

But ... with no bar ... (duh?) .... he should have showed more caution! He won't do that again now will he?

Samurai ... seat belts .... OK .. I've, to the great dismay of some , have been saved 4X by belts. Three times I was young and stupid and was distracted (she was goooooooo lookin!), going too fast ... but the last time, after 20+ years of accident free driving was saved cause of the belts & bags from some fool.

Wanna start an office pool on roll over #3 .. ?? : Like the man sez .. "Ya' pays yer dollar sonny and ya' takes yer' chances ... "
post #32 of 50
My condolences to the family. Sad to loose a life so young.

Not sure what all the discussion is here. Here in upstate NY, the state law is very clear. All lifts have safety bars and you must put your safety bar down. Its the lift attendants responsibility to make sure your safety bar is DOWN. End of discussion for NY state.

When I am out west I like having a foot rest. I usually say something like foot rest anyone before lowering the safety bar.

In my younger life I painted 100s of lift towers without any protection. I got nothing to prove about how moncho I am riding a lift without the safety bar down. : Give me a break.

I know of only one REAL scenario that I witnessed, where not using a safety bar could of helped a little but even here it did not change the outcome. A loaded double chair cable clamp released and was sliding down the hall cable toward another loaded chair. The ski instructor and snowmaker on skis were in the chair that would be hit by the sliding chair from above. Both the ski instructor and snowmaker did a quick safety bar flip and leaped out of the chair, which was at its lowest point on a pull down tower where the fall was only 7 foot. Their chair was smashed bad real bad and bent all to hell. Given the chairs MOI , the the instructor and snowmaker would have had double broken tib/fib and probable posterior dislocated hips, if they stayed in the chair with or without the safety bar down. As it was everything turned out ok . Nobody got hurt.
post #33 of 50
If the young man had an extremely painful cramp in his calf,he might well have raised the safety bar if it had been down so that the could reach it. A
bad cramp like that can cause someone to have a sudden unthinking reaction, a sudden forward movement leading to a headfirst tumble.

It's a sorrowful thing for his friends and family.
post #34 of 50
Very true, especially early in the season ..... a real "Charlie Horse" .... where the hell did that term come from? .... would put you into mega-pain react mode!
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
..... a real "Charlie Horse" .... where the hell did that term come from? ....
Nov 30, 2007

Yuki San:

From Wikipedia: The term may date back to American baseball slang of the 1880s, possibly from the pitcher Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourn who is said to have suffered from cramps.[6] Another story mentions a horse named Charley that used to work at Comiskey Park, the Chicago White Sox' ballpark in Chicago. In those days, an old, retired horse was often called "Charley".

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=793510: there are two schools of thought when it comes to the term "Charlie horse". The first one is of American origin and claims that the term originated in Chicago way back in the 1890's. It seems that the local baseball team, the Chicago White Sox had a groundskeeper that went by the name Charlie. Charlie owned a horse that would pull rollers across the field in order to try and keep it level and to prevent bad hop grounders from skipping up and injuring the players. Well, one day, poor old Charlie's horse came up lame and the term stuck and was used when a ballplayer went down with a leg injury. The second one is attributed to the constables of jolly ol' England. Apparently they were nicknamed "Charlie"s and because they were on their feel an awful lot walking the beats and chasing down the less desirables, they were often prone to getting leg cramps. Hence, the cramps became known as "riding Charlie's horse" and term endured even when it came stateside.


Think snow, grasshopper,

CP
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebough View Post
This is just another sad reminder that macho psychotic behavior (not using a safety bar when one is available) can be dangerous. When my kids were young and paid no attention to anything, I never let them on a lift without a safety bar. Regarding summer vs. winter in Colorado, is someone nuts? Do they think you can't get killed falling 30-40 feet onto packed snow?
Ummm...I have a hard time accepting that not using a safety bar is somehow psychotic. Each of us makes their own choices. Some would argue that driving 65 is psychotic, or going skiing is psychotic because you might get hurt. Lighten up.
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by doogiedoc View Post
Ummm...I have a hard time accepting that not using a safety bar is somehow psychotic. Each of us makes their own choices. Some would argue that driving 65 is psychotic, or going skiing is psychotic because you might get hurt. Lighten up.
Not psychotic. I think some just wonder - if the safey bar is there why some people don't use it. What's the point of not using it if it is available? It takes but a second to simply swing it down. Is it because it isnt cool to be seen with the safety bar down(real men don't need safety bars), or its just fun to ride with the safefy bar up, or it tqkes too much effort to raise the arm and lower it? I was always curious as to why many people ride with the bar up when it's there. Hopefully this will turn not a macho flame fest like the helmet or binding DIN threads. i.e. Real men crank their bindings up to 22 and helmets are for wussies.
post #38 of 50
Bah, you make your own destiny, no such thing as luck no such thing as "it was his time". Luck and destiny are made with each action you make as each day progresses, its been shown those who are "lucky" in general simply take more chances or try more times, its a numbers game. The ugly guy that gets the real hot girl hit on 200 girls before he got her , its not that he's lucky (or he has a few million $$$ ).

The kid that died was careless and so he died. RIP

I dont put the bar down when on the chair alone, but one day while reaching to catch my glove, I nearly had, what would have been, a potentially fatal drop. The rest of the day I had the bar down. Lesson learned.

Course he could have just worn a full face helmet
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt7180 View Post
If your scenario were to be played out 100 times, I would guess that there would be many times more people fall out of a chair with the bar up, than would receive blunt-trauma from hitting a secured bar. Now you have to factor the odds of not being injured in the chiar vs luckily surviving the fall.
Agreed. The bar may increase the chance of injury, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that having and using a safety bar would increase mortality. It just doesn't make sense, since falling such a great distance poses a significant danger, but blunt force of falling against the bar is very unlikely to be fatal.

Also the distances that most lifts are raised are not safe fall distances. Only once have I thought about jumping off a ski lift (it was stopped for thirty minutes almost and there was a nice snowdirft below us, lift started right before we were going to do it though). Even on that lift though (Monarch Ski Resort) most of it was high enough that I would NEVER think of jumping off. Especially since lifts tend to run above non-cleared terrain with exposed rocks and the like. A safe landing area would be the exception.
post #40 of 50
Of course ...... CharlieP ......... would know where Charlie Horse came from!

post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
Of course ...... CharlieP ......... would know where Charlie Horse came from!

Nov 30, 2007

Yuki San:

That's a "good one". I deserved it.

Maybe I should change my screen name to CharlieH?

Think snow, grasshopper....

CP
post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvatum View Post
Agreed. The bar may increase the chance of injury, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that having and using a safety bar would increase mortality. It just doesn't make sense, since falling such a great distance poses a significant danger, but blunt force of falling against the bar is very unlikely to be fatal.
Aggreed. Not using the lift bar for fear of it causing an injury during a lift mishap has got to be one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard at this website.
post #43 of 50
Shocking stuff in here I am starting a new thread.
post #44 of 50
Call it a restraining bar not a safety bar. Children and shorter teenagers and adults, while reaching up to grab the bar to lower or raise it, have slipped off the chair and been injured and even killed. Similarly, folks who fail to remove backpacks can increase their risk of sliding off when raising or lowering the bar with unhappy consequences.

As I understand it has to do with the shift in body position when raising and lowering the bar. In the case of young children this is said to be exacerbated by the relative weight of their head to their body. There is a continuing debate whether restraining bars actually reduce or potentially increase the likelihood of falls from lifts. Personally, I don't know whether restraining bars actually confer a net benefit though I agree that they can be beneficial in some situations. There have been previous threads here on the subject of restraining bar hazards.

I only ask is that if someone going to lower the bar, let others riding with you know your intention first. Restraining bars often have a foot rest component. The assembly is bolstered by a metal pipe that comes down perpendicular to the seat on the chair itself when the bar is lowered. It can come down in inconvenient and painful places of your chairmate's anatomy if he has not had time to execute appropriate avoidance measures.
post #45 of 50
Sorry for the detour. I learned the word charlie horse to apply to an injury caused by impact to the thigh muscle. You get punched or kicked or hit by a baseball in the thigh; you end up with a "charlie horse". Perhaps such injuries were suffered by batters beaned by charlie Hoss.
post #46 of 50
Lostboy ... good points .... in "Lift Use 101" ... we were not allowed to use the word safety bar ..... clients were instructed to put down "the bar".

I always announce "bar down" and then look over at the others to be sure they are ready. I hate it when you just barely get your adz on the seat and some nit wit jambs the bar down on hands, poles or helmet.
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
in Japan, when loading the lifts, the locals automatically pull down the safety-bar.

I hate it.

I avoid riding chairs with locals because of it, too.

I too can sit in a restaurant chair without falling onto the floor.

I have much respect for the family. But I for some reason doubt they are concerned about some fricking safety bar.

Get over it people, blow on your fricking coffee before you burn your lips and sue McDonalds.

the kid died, and I'm willing to bet that he would have died with the safety bar in place. Why- because I don't believe in luck. And- I didn't die the two times I rolled my truck wtihout wearing a seatbelt.

I'm with VA on this one- I'm willing to show my respect for the deceased, but will admit that it has nothing to do with a safety bar. And if anyone is so paranoid to think that a safety bar will save their life, well... buckle up, I guess.
Yo, Samurai

Keep pushing your luck and the law of averages will catch up with you. It's a basic Darwinian principle.
post #48 of 50
sign acknowledged.
post #49 of 50
I like bars!
post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
It's come up many times as an issue in the Rockies. Colorado Ski Safety Act was kind of the pioneer of the idea. Following the Teller lift accident at Keystone, they did a very thorough investigation of safety differences of safety bar vs. no safety bar. It was concluded that the difference in outcome of accidents is negligible.

Just an example (albeit far fetched): in the event of a gearbox lockup in which the haul rope was literally stopped immediately, the entire line will often hit an oscillation point where the line is violently going up and down. Your first thought might be that you'd want a safety bar to keep you on the chair. But on further thought, probably not. There are three distinct possibilities in a serious oscillation issue. #1, your bar is down and you are being smacked up out of your seat an into the bar, and back down, over and over and over. Talk about pelvic fractures, internal ruptures of abdominal organs, maybe even split ribs, collapsed lung, etc. #2, you bar is down and the oscillation combined with the weight on your chair is enough for the hanger or grip to fail. Down goes your chair, and you're stuck in it with your "safety" bar down. #3, your safety bar is up. You either can manage to stay with the chair and avoid the blunt trauma that the bar would cause, or you are ejected from the chair. In the west (esp. CO and UT), where the snow is more often soft and forgiving than not, you can survive the semi-controlled fall with few injuries (unfortunately for the young man in question, it was not a controlled fall. sounds like he probably landed on his head, neck, or back. bad news). Depending on the snowpack and how you fall, you might hop up and ski off. There is of course, the possibility that you are either above nasty hard pack or ice, or you are significantly high in the air. And yeah... that kinda sucks, 'cause you're gonna be in bad shape.

Point is, there are reasons to say no safety bar. At least in Colorado, it is entirely up to the ski area operator whether to have bars or not for winter operations. Any lift that operates in the summer, however, must be equipped with a safety bar.

Are you okay? How about another example(albiet far fetched): The safety bar is down, but then a f104 Starfighter swoops in and starts oscillating your chair. The oscillascope you decide to bring along starts REALLY oscillating, to the point that the "safety" bar oscillates itself right out of the hardpack. One pelvic fracture later, and that kinda sucks, 'cause you're gonna be in bad shape.

I TRULY believe I just made more sense than you, and I'm not even that smart.
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