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I don't know what to say . . . .Man assaults teen at A-Basin - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
Yep, that's why the call them accidents. We can try to assign blame all we want, but collisions are an assumed risk of the sport--one which increases exponentially the more folks there are trying to ride the same terrain patch. And not all collisions are caused by reckless or irresponsible behavior. Skiers responsibility code notwithstanding, people aren't perfect and inevitably mistakes will lead to collisions.

What bothers me is that so many people are unwilling to acknowledge this. If we go out on the slopes, we run the risk of being hit--period. Which means if we do get hit, we should remind ourselves that we assumed that risk when we stepped into our bindings that day and get over it as best we can.

Sure we can talk about how so and so was reckless or was going too fast, but in the vast majority of cases, no matter how reckless or fast so and so actually was, he or she probably wasn't deliberately trying to endanger anyone--which likely means they thought they were riding reasonably. So that leaves us with good people making bad judgments--which happens every day (and which none of us are immune from). Which is why the only thing that works is to either assume the risk or decide to take up a different sport.
HooRah!!
post #32 of 59
If that snowboarder had been skiing, this never would have happened.
post #33 of 59
Altercation Sunday. X-rays not done until Monday night which indicates she probably thought she was ok. GF story jibes with teen. That's all I need to hear to be able to tell who the punk really is and it's apparent he doesn't quite have is story straight. Sounds like the authorities agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtremity View Post
SOrry but this is BS. You mean to tell me that the Kid did nothing wrong and the adult just snapped ?? I find that very unlikely. I'm sure he said some stupid remark or something along those lines to piss off the Lady's boyfriend.

They are not printing the whole story You can tell. NO one is that calm in those situations, not at the age of 17 anyway... Yes, maybe she did tell him that he could leave but maybe it was more along the lines of "Get the Hell out of here" and maybe he responded with a smart comment towards the girl's bf.. then he walks back towards the guy to act all big and tough (like most teens do) and go his butt kicked in...

I'm sorry But I higly doubt this story is accurate, I see my version a more realistic scenario... No one gets their butt kicked for being polite... that didn't happen..

I can't believe some of you actually think the kid acted properly and got his butt kicked..sorry that's not the way real life works..


Glad he got his butt kicked I bet 90% chance he deserved it, and don't even begin with he's a minor crap.. he's 17 he knew what he was doing, and at 17 you are more that capable of defending your self...
post #34 of 59

Well

While it does sound like the adult overreacted horribly; I would be hesitant when saying things like:

"Glad the guy's facing felony charges,"

Those are serious charges and could really screw up a guys life, forever. I mean did the guy get upset and maybe swing his poles a few times? Or was he really trying to cause bodily harm?

If the adult had crashed into the teens girlfriend and the teen had swung his poles (if he had been skiing), in an angry fit, would the teen have been charged with felonies?

It just seems to me that the police go overboard sometimes when trying to charge people with crimes, especially when its an adult vs. a so called juvenile.

Felony charges seem a bit harsh unless there was an intent to actually seriously hurt someone.

If the guy was really trying to hurt the kid, and the kid has marks to prove it, then maybe its all warranted. Otherwise I hope cooler head prevail and this turns out to be knocked down to misdemeanors.

Of course knowing todays society, i bet the guy gets sued in civil court no matter what the legal outcome.
post #35 of 59
You need to ask their age before you give them a tune-up.
post #36 of 59

Slope Incident

Do you believe the press and everything they say?

Somehow life is different than what the media tries to depict.

And everyone is espousing on something they really know nothing aboout, were you there, did you see and hear what happened, have you read the police reports, witness accounts. If not:

PURE CONJECTURE - Meaningless
post #37 of 59
If the kid went over to the guy when he was called only to be beaten, that really sucks. You call a kid over, out of respect he comes over and then you flog him with ski poles. I'd say that's pretty low down behavior.

And how will people respond when the kids parents file a civil suit.
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Do you believe the press and everything they say?

Somehow life is different than what the media tries to depict.

And everyone is espousing on something they really know nothing aboout, were you there, did you see and hear what happened, have you read the police reports, witness accounts. If not:

PURE CONJECTURE - Meaningless
If anyone knows it's Pete.
post #39 of 59
The guy hit him with his ski poles? What a sissy. I wonder how many nancy-boy slapfights he's gotten into.
post #40 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
The guy hit him with his ski poles? What a sissy. I wonder how many nancy-boy slapfights he's gotten into.
sounds like he pole-axed the child.
post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho View Post
Do you believe the press and everything they say?

Somehow life is different than what the media tries to depict.

And everyone is espousing on something they really know nothing aboout, were you there, did you see and hear what happened, have you read the police reports, witness accounts. If not:

PURE CONJECTURE - Meaningless
Maybe you don't know nothing about it. I read an article about it. News papers are the first draft of history. Your point of view seems unreasonably skeptical. Are you claiming that the whole story is a fabrication?

If you have evidence or facts that contradict the facts as presented why don't you contact the police, or newspaper and ask for a retraction, or just post them here? If you simply doubt anything you read--thats your prerogative. I am inclined to believe this article, it seems reasonable to me. General skepticism is based entirely on a priori reasoning while my "pure conjecture" is at least made in consultation with the available facts.

What do you find so unbelievable about this story? Do you think police reports, and other eye witness testimony any more reliable?
post #42 of 59
I don't think the whole story is being told in this article though I feel the adult should have acted like one.
post #43 of 59
Many folks assume teenagers snowboarders are always the guilty ones. I see a lot of responsible teenage snowboarders that do an awesome job of avoiding collisions as the result of out of control skiers.
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
This reminded me of a recent thread here where a middle-aged guy was talking about how he would've administered "justice" to a teenage girl involved in a similar collision. With all the talk, some are gonna act out. Glad the guy's facing felony charges, teenagers are people too.
I'm that middle aged (34yo) guy. I don't spank my kids (or my wife unless she explicitly asks haha).

My wife was rearended by an out of control skier who was 19yo. While my wife was lying on ground dazed with bloody nose, this kid comes at us screaming at me and my wife, "Who the F--- are you," "Where are you from... I'm a F'ing local." Ski patrol came over (he witnessed the incident and wrote the incident up as I've described) and she starts screaming at him as well... many expletives toward my wife and I, as well as Patroller.

Would I have hit this princess had patrol not been there? Had I been solo there with my temporarily incapacitated wife on the ground, with Princess screaming in my face, in my personal space, I may have. She never once checked my wife to see if she was okay, never once said, "sorry," never once acted concerned with anyone except herself. Meanwhile yelling at me???

What I'm most disturbed about, was the lack of the Patrollers ability to handle HER during her outburst. The Patroller substantiated the Princess' belief that BOTH my wife and her were "reckless" so that he could "diffuse the situation." He didn't control the situation by telling her to stifle. The princess skied off. Then he told US that my wife did nothing wrong, and that he would "hot" the Princess' pass (essentially she wouldn't be able to ski until she takes a remedial safety course). So the teenager thinks my wife was equally at fault, which is the whole darn problem in the first place.

If a cop saw me rearend an auto on the streets while driving, I would expect him to confront me with the fact that it was my fault... as that's the law. I expected the Patroller to confront the Princess. He failed IMHO, to point out the fact that you are responsible for avoiding downhill objects - skiers code. If her actions weren't enough to get her ejected, what would be worse?

My wife's back at work, and besides a resolving black eye, she'll likely be okay. I'm going to Keystone again in a few weeks, without the family. I am very disapointed in the Patrollers ability to Patrol. We will be looking at other Resorts in the future. Patrol needs to be Patrol, darnit. If Patrol isn't there to enforce the Code, who will?

If it happens again, I'll merely ski off with the perpetrators skis/board which will be "justice" enough. LOL. But at the time, with my wife incapacitated, I may have popped her one when her mouth was within 12 inches of my face screaming at me that it wasn't her fault, and my wife doesn't know what she's "f-ing talking about."

I wasn't there, so I won't comment on the ABasin incident, but there's always two sides to every story.

One last comment. In medical jargon, we no longer speak about motor vehicles accidents. They are motor vehicle collisions. Minor syntax change, but most collisions are preventable, and not truly accidental. Likewise, my wife's injuries were not accidental, as the other skier was not following the skier's code, which setup the collision in the first place. I'm not suggesting it was intentional, but it wasn't an accident, either.

-Z
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtremity View Post
SOrry but this is BS. You mean to tell me that the Kid did nothing wrong and the adult just snapped ?? I find that very unlikely. I'm sure he said some stupid remark or something along those lines to piss off the Lady's boyfriend.

They are not printing the whole story You can tell. NO one is that calm in those situations, not at the age of 17 anyway... Yes, maybe she did tell him that he could leave but maybe it was more along the lines of "Get the Hell out of here" and maybe he responded with a smart comment towards the girl's bf.. then he walks back towards the guy to act all big and tough (like most teens do) and go his butt kicked in...

I'm sorry But I higly doubt this story is accurate, I see my version a more realistic scenario... No one gets their butt kicked for being polite... that didn't happen..

I can't believe some of you actually think the kid acted properly and got his butt kicked..sorry that's not the way real life works..


Glad he got his butt kicked I bet 90% chance he deserved it, and don't even begin with he's a minor crap.. he's 17 he knew what he was doing, and at 17 you are more that capable of defending your self...
people in this world are ****ed up, the kids sounds like he did everything right except for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockerZ View Post
If her actions weren't enough to get her ejected, what would be worse?
It would be worse if she then went online and whined in 101 threads about how unfair life is and how everyone else is so incompetent.

Why don't you try contributing to the forum?
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockerZ View Post
.I'm not suggesting it was intentional, but it wasn't an accident, either.

-Z
ac·ci·dent 1 a: an unforeseen or unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of intention or necessity

You obviously don't have a grasp of what an accident is, so I thought I'd help.
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtremity View Post
SOrry but this is BS. You mean to tell me that the Kid did nothing wrong and the adult just snapped ?? I find that very unlikely. I'm sure he said some stupid remark or something along those lines to piss off the Lady's boyfriend.

They are not printing the whole story You can tell. NO one is that calm in those situations, not at the age of 17 anyway... Yes, maybe she did tell him that he could leave but maybe it was more along the lines of "Get the Hell out of here" and maybe he responded with a smart comment towards the girl's bf.. then he walks back towards the guy to act all big and tough (like most teens do) and go his butt kicked in...

I'm sorry But I higly doubt this story is accurate, I see my version a more realistic scenario... No one gets their butt kicked for being polite... that didn't happen..

I can't believe some of you actually think the kid acted properly and got his butt kicked..sorry that's not the way real life works..


Glad he got his butt kicked I bet 90% chance he deserved it, and don't even begin with he's a minor crap.. he's 17 he knew what he was doing, and at 17 you are more that capable of defending your self...
Agreed. The media is horrible about stories like this, they always try to spin it so someone looks guilty. Take the example of Carol Gottbaum, who was taking multiple anti-depressents, was known to be suicidal, was being flown to a drug-rehab center without any escort and then arrested because she was screaming and threatened to assault the ticketing agent. She then managed to commit suicide in the interview room by asphyxiating herself on her handcuffs, and the cops had no idea about any of her problems so understandably did not have her under suicide watch...

The first stories in the media about this made it sound like the cops arbitrarily arrested some woman and caused her death. Only later did the facts come out, though the non-sensationalized version is much less interesting.

First sensationalized story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...es_in_pho.html
The facts (two months later : http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j...J-GCwD8SQGN480

I bet the actual story is closer to Xtremity's version, I know from experience that by "OK to leave" the real answer might have been "get the hell out of here." My mother was hit by a reckless snowboarder a few years ago and he did stop to say sorry but my mom was so pissed at him that she just told him to get out of there. Only later did it occur to her that she should have brought him to ski patrol
post #49 of 59
Hi,

My Thoughts:
No matter what is the truth in that case. After read all the posts here, one central thing comes to be crystal clear - If all of us became unhappy to read about this kind of behavior at the slopes. So, there are no better place to us to begin some "educational" strategy to get back the respect and the good behavior on the mountain. We have Instructors, Patrols, great skiers/bodyboarders and ordinary skiers(my case). We can and we must to begin to ask for a good attitude at the trails.

Our goal will be as already said to capture back "...the ski hill is for relaxation and stress relief ( and a fun way to get some exercise ). .."

And, if there are a "rule" let us ask for the accomplishment of the "rules".

Even, if the very basic concept to us enjoy the day is to keep in mind that "... People below have right of way, always, no matter what erratic nonsense they may pull...."

Well, just my thoughts...

Think Snow
Eduardo
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
ac·ci·dent 1 a: an unforeseen or unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of intention or necessity

You obviously don't have a grasp of what an accident is, so I thought I'd help.
If you are traveling at a rate of speed beyond your ability and you are leaving no margin for error so that you cannot aoid a collision then it's not an accident.

If you spend anytime riding then you see a constant stream of out of control skiers/riders and near collisions and you also see apparently nothing being done about it. The scary thing is that most of these people think they are good and in control, they simply just don't know.
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hvatum View Post
Agreed. The media is horrible about stories like this, they always try to spin it so someone looks guilty. Take the example of Carol Gottbaum, who was taking multiple anti-depressents, was known to be suicidal, was being flown to a drug-rehab center without any escort and then arrested because she was screaming and threatened to assault the ticketing agent. She then managed to commit suicide in the interview room by asphyxiating herself on her handcuffs, and the cops had no idea about any of her problems so understandably did not have her under suicide watch...

The first stories in the media about this made it sound like the cops arbitrarily arrested some woman and caused her death. Only later did the facts come out, though the non-sensationalized version is much less interesting.

First sensationalized story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...es_in_pho.html
The facts (two months later : http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j...J-GCwD8SQGN480

l
You are an idiot. She didn't commit suicide and you say the cops had no idea of her problems? Why do you think she was arrested? BEcause she was acting as a mentally disturbed person does.

Talk about the media getting the facts wrong your entire summary is wrong.
post #52 of 59
Is this the Frank Furlott that owns a ski shop in Loveland?
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
It would be worse if she then went online and whined in 101 threads about how unfair life is and how everyone else is so incompetent.

Why don't you try contributing to the forum?
If this (dockerz's) situation ever happened to someone in my family I'd be rip $#!t. I understand his frustration and I think that it's wrong for that kid, the girl who claims to be on a ski team, to 'get a way with it'.

Press charges, that'll get her attention.

I bet the snowboarder's parents are looking at their leagal options as we chat. They should be. If the story is true, the bully won't like what lies ahead if they choose to follow through legally.

I'm sure more will be revealled, but if what is claimed in the article is true, he needs to be held accountable.

And the 'racer girl' could use a little reprimand from a higher authority as well.
post #54 of 59
The fact that some are actually getting thier undies bunched here is hilarious. I've been shouted at a few times by gapers who feel I've violated thier personal 50 yard radius "saftey space". If one of these puds ever started flailing me with thier poles while screaming in a high-pitched girlie voice, I'd probably soil myself from laughing so hard.

It's true that there are some losers out there who are out of control and hitting people (like the little girl at Snowbird last year), but there are also tons of gapers who think anyone who isn't skiing 10 mhp is out to kill them (any ski area on President's Day Weekend). It's all about perception.

And personally, I see the Patrol as guys who keep civilians safe, not babysitters. There's a line to be drawn in there somewhere, but I'm not sure where it is.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockerZ View Post
One last comment. In medical jargon, we no longer speak about motor vehicles accidents. They are motor vehicle collisions. Minor syntax change, but most collisions are preventable, and not truly accidental.
-Z
"most collisions are preventable" in hindsight. That is a critical distinction that needs to be made. The point of the word "accident" is to recognize that without the benefit of hindsight, people have to make decisions up front and sometimes, despite their best intentions, they will be wrong. If a reasonable person would have acted in a similar fashion under identical circumstances, the term accident is very appropriate. Alternatively, if both parties share equally in the blame, I would also think the term accident would be appropriate.

IMO the real problem is the skiers responsibility code--which tends to place blame solely on the uphill rider. This might have been fine 50 years ago, but it doesn't work with today's crowded slopes and modern technique unless you want to say riders can't pass each other or you want to post speed limits and require everyone to wear a gps.

The reality is that the downhill rider has some responsibilities too--namely to be smooth, consistent and not make sudden stops, turns, or traverses without looking back uphill first. When downhill riders suddenly accelerate in an unexpected direction they can quickly turn a safe pass into a collision. Post-hoc, one can always claim that the uphill rider should have allowed more room, but ultimately that ends up being a judgment call that is often influenced by terrain (and who is coming up behind). It would be one thing if there was a simple way to calculate how much room is required to safely pass, but there isn't. The amount of room required varies based on the speeds of both riders as well as the equipment they are on (i.e. turn radii come into play). Other than a few savants out there, most of us couldn't do the kind of calculations needed in the time allowed (even if we had some way of knowing all of the necessary variables), so we just have to rely on spatial awareness. As long as everybody stays smooth, nobody collides. But just like on the freeway, erratic riding often results in collisions--or accidents as I like to call them, since both parties share some responsibility.

I'm not trying to comment on any specific collision mentioned in this thread, nor am I trying to paint all collisions with the same brush. There are certainly collisions that are caused by out of control riders. However, I don't think there is an epidemic of out of control riders, which leads me to believe that a lot of collisions tend to involve mutual culpability. Which is why I don't understand all of the righteous indignation out there or the belief that Ski Patrol should somehow be doing "more". Anyone who passes slower riders runs the risk of being on the giving end of a collision. And anyone who rides assumes the risk of being on the receiving end of a collision--its just part of the sport.
post #56 of 59
I have no problem avoiding the skiers ahead of me, no matter what they do. Code works fine for me.

After one close call avoiding the skier coming down at me while I was just getting to the uphill part of carving a circle, I see some value in going above and beyond the code and not doing unexpected sudden things, it's like insurance or hedging your bet.
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Indicative of a much bigger issue. The simple answer is just don’t hit anyone.
I'm sorry but I disagree.....the rule is don't hit anyone who hasn't hit you first and/or is seriously threatening your life......then hit back with overwhelming force.
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
IMO the real problem is the skiers responsibility code.
Good post.

If it is a problem, then how could we fix it? I don't agree with you, I think that the problem is simple - congestion. How many skier collisions do we rack up skiing the bumps?


Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
its just part of the sport.
That is oh too true.


The downhill skier usually bears most of the brunt of a collision because they're unprepared for it.
post #59 of 59
Right eNick. I doubt many collisions happen in the Trees or steep terrain, but on easier runs where sports enthusiast :don't take in to account a higher risk factor.:
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