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Can skiing technique be wrong? - Page 4

post #91 of 100
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
The vast majority of skiers just want to be able to not fall, not get hurt, ski moderately challenging terraiin, and have fun. Doing it well or being "good" at it is their focus.

I just object to the concept of right and wrong, or more specifically about imposing those concepts on others - unless, as you say, they ask.

No problem, SMJ. I'm totally fine with people having different objectives and concepts of fun when skiing, and support their right to do so. If they are content with their present state of skill, great. My feelings toward it are completely ambivalent.

But I must admit, I do watch and evaluate skiers as I ride up a lift. I seem to be in constant MA mode, and I see so much that I could help people with in a short period of time. But it's not, as Steve appears to think, done to stroke my ego. It's just a byproduct of working on and teaching skiing skills for 40 years. It's just ingrained.
post #92 of 100
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Probably. I view it (as I've mentioned multiple times) as 100% contextual. This is why the finger-pointing version of "wrong skiing" is so inappropriate (regardless of what some self-appointed keepers of the skiing truth have continuously proclaimed).
100% contextual? Okay. If you're observing someone's actual skiing - standing at the bottom of the hill and watching them ski - you have your context. You can see the terrain they are on, see the turns they are trying to make, understand the conditions they are dealing with, and blatantly see (or maybe not) where their skiing is lacking - in the context of the situation you are witnessing. Within two or three runs of observation you should have no trouble spotting what is wrong with the skiing. This realization has nothing to do with "finger pointing" (here you swear off that tactic yet use it in the same sentence to go on the offensive against those who do not share your same opinion... ironyyyyy). Acknowledging what is wrong is the first step to fixing your student's skiing. You don't need to tell them - but as the coach you need to have the ability to build off this first step - and more importantly, give your student a starting point that will replace the "bad with good"/"incorrect with correct"/"inefficiency with efficiency" or you just aren't doing your job.

Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Rather than focus on "wrong", it's more useful and powerful to expand your explanation to clarify the objectives, the process, the movements, the skills, and the combination of those which constitutes "technique"...
Those who have said that technique can be wrong have already said that. You're talking about coaching the student - that should be going on regardless. If you don't identify the issues that exist before starting this process you might as well not waste your, or your student's time. No one has said that you have to present the unfortunate truth to your student by announcing: "AHA, you suck! That skiing was completely awful, we need to start from completely from scratch because you have such a poor misunderstanding of how to ski" ...Although sometimes that might be the best way to produce some eye opening changes... but it probably won't make you very many friends initially. Those who you are so adamantly disagreeing with (you're not calling them wrong are you?) are saying that in order to effectively correct a student's skiing you must be able to first identify what is wrong with it. If you can't, or aren't willing to do that, it is doubtful that the student is going to learn much of anything.

As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion, so I think the discussion can be left at that. The "truth" lies on the snow anyway. Enjoy.


post #93 of 100
ssh, thanks for doing the right thing.

I agree that right and wrong can be highly situational none the less there is still right and wrong for a given situation.

For me wrong works very well. I often can figue out what works (right) by finding thing that don't work (wrong) and eliminating them for a given circumstance. I also understand some find wrong to harsh and work better through different words.

It's unfortunate we often give emotion to simple words.
post #94 of 100
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I guess it becasue my old SSD was a euro where they arent all lovey good every gets a medal like we are in the states.
Good bud, Mr. Whacker?
post #95 of 100
Right, Wrong or Meaningful?

I see little if any value in terms like ‘Right’ and ‘Wrong’ as applied to the teaching of Snowsports.

Assigning the term ‘Wrong’ to a movement pattern based on the assumption of a harmful misapplication of said technique is of no value to the student. Instead, describe specific applications and probable outcomes to the student.

Judgmental terms are meaningless because they contain no useable information. Sometimes these terms are nothing more than expressions of ones own ski snobbery, self-aggrandizing or self-importance. Other times they're merely tools to manipulatively attach emotional values to proposed ideas in order to reduce resistance to those ideas.

Judgmental terms are also used to cover up ones own lack of technical understanding.

It’s way easier to say “That’s Wrong!” than to competently identify what a student is *actually* doing vs. what we’d like them to do. A muddled coach/instructor will often hide their lack of detailed understanding by injecting words like Good, Bad, Right and Wrong because they’ve no comprehension for what’s really going on with the student nor how to properly describe what they’d like the student to be doing.

I think adamant declarations of ‘Right’ and ‘Wrong’ in place of specific descriptions strongly indicates a coaches lack of genuine understanding in the topic. If a coach *can* provide specific and informative descriptions for what they see then they simply have no need for declarations of Rightness and Wrongness and they can accomplish a lot more with their student.

Imagine a student skis down to us: We say to them, “That was really Bad and totally Wrong! I want you to try again - and do it Right this time!”

Exactly *what* have we just communicated to this student? Does this student now know exactly what to change? Do they know what aspect of their movement pattern did not meet our expectations? What movements were actually appropriate and should not be modified? How does the student figure out where to start? Was it really the Student who mucked up - or are we mucking them up by delivering meaningless admonishments of “Wrongness” in place of useful information? In effect, all we've done is Bash them.

For instance…
Originally Posted by JRN
If a skier launches off a bump and lands on his back did he do something wrong?

Instead . . . this Skier launched off the bump with their balance directed over (or behind) their heels in the fore/aft plane. This, combined with the upturned lip of the jump caused their whole body to rotate backwards such that by the time they landed they were presenting their backside to the snow surface instead of their skis. This is what happened. ‘Wrongness’ did not cause the skier to land on his backside. Wrongness did not rotate him backward.

For the Skier to land on their skis instead of their backside, the skier needs to approach takeoff with their F/A balance point further forward and absorb the last-minute backward rotation caused by the lip of the jump by sliding both feet forward while flexing into takeoff… This takes no ‘Rightness’ to accomplish. ‘Rightness’ does not describe what the skier must do nor will admonishments of ‘Wrongness’ ever help the skier learn to manage bump takeoff and landing technique.

How many forum threads have we seen deteriorate into arguments of Rightness and Wrongness? When this occurs how much meaningful content do readers then glean from all the pompous pontificating and jousting over who’s Right?

In my view, bold declarations of Rightness and Wrongness in place of meaningful explanation or exploration are merely indications of a weak (or non-existent) understanding of the topic being discussed or examined.

Fortunately, this never happens on these forums.

post #96 of 100
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
Good bud, Mr. Whacker?
never have touched that ****, the fact people need to enhance there lifes with it means your not living enough.

gawd i hate it when people ask me where they can it too. I dont know, I dont care, I am about ready to start a thread saying I dont smoke never will, never will try. Way to strong willed for that ****.
post #97 of 100
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Again: THIS IS AN INSTRUCTIONAL FORUM. (And you are an instructor)
Well, it is supposed to be an instructional/coaching forum. Seems to me this thread should be relegated to the Technique & Paralysis forum though, as it seems to fall more in line with what that area was set up for. (But that's just the opinion of a non-instructor)

Originally Posted by Rick View Post
...even the best exections have elements that can be improved. In any technique choice, only perfect execution is void of anything WRONG.
Rick, Do you believe "perfect execution" is obtainable? It would seem not, as you have stated "even the best executions ...can be improved."

Further, it would seem your statement simplifies things down to: We are all skiing WRONG - at every moment! Whether we started skiing today or won the WC a moment ago!

I don't see this as anymore constructive than the "everything is RIGHT" position? Both remind me of a phrase I heard one time: "Any idea taken to its ultimate conclusion is utterly ridiculous"

Come on, Rick! That's a useless definition/postulation/whatever. I've skied with you several times and you don't approach skiing as it is impossible to do anything RIGHT! I can't believe you coach (or believe) that everything your athletes do is WRONG - by definition. This doesn't pass the smell test, what gives?

Anyway, I don't see the point in these extremes of everything is RIGHT and everything is WRONG positions, beyond the theoretical semantics exercise (that doesn't belong in the instructional/coaching forum.)


To the instructional and coaching perspective, I believe it can be a reality for a skier to execute the RIGHT movements/skills/techniques/etc even if they are doing so at a very low level (or a high level) and could use improvement - without being WRONG, simply by falling short of perfection.

I agree with the notion of continuous improvement, however, I do not believe executing short of perfection is the same as being categorically WRONG.

post #98 of 100
The original question is simple - Is there such a thing as wrong in skiing? Not should you use the word wrong when teaching. Not is there a perfectly right way to ski. Not anything else.

I understand, as we all should if we learned anything from this thread, that many people have a visceral negative reaction to the word wrong. Obviously using the word wrong when instructing must be done with great care and understanding of the student if used at all. However, I don't remember any one advocating teaching by saying, "you did that wrong."

Right:wrong, good:bad, love:hate - they all exist in skiing and life. Most of us are drawn to one side and repelled by the other - none the less both sides exist.

BTW, michaelA, I know wrong(n - a small yet powerfull creature known to hide in snow and push skiers boots ahead of their hips) did not make the skier land on his back(I read Gifts From Eykis), but if he intended to land on his skis he did used the wrong(adj) technique, as you spelled out.
post #99 of 100
Chris, go take some St. John's Wort.

You've tryed to completely twisted what I said, apparently, for all I can imagine, just to argue. I can't be bothered.
post #100 of 100
St. John's Wort, LOL Ya think I should cut back on the coffee too?

Nah, no overwhelming need to argue. Lets ski instead:

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