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# Steepness of New Englan d Trails - Page 2

Quote:
 Originally posted by learn2turnagain:One thing that's important to point out is sometimes steepness is indicated in degrees of pitch and other times it's specified in % grade. Be sure you know which unit steepness is specific in. Grade is the vertical distance devided by the horizontal distance. (Some people use the term rise over run but that is incorrect. Rise/Run would be Y/R and grade is Y/X). Mathematically grade is the tangent of the angle. To convert for grade to degrees, it's the inverse tangent. A pitch of 45 degrees would be a grade of 100%. If White Heat has a grade of 55% (.55), it's pitch is 28.8 degrees. I was up at Tremblant last week and had a snack at the Trapper's Lodge on Soleil. They have some really cool old trail maps, one with very detailed notes on the original trails, like "easy here", "cliffs", "very steep". A section of the Kandahar trail (a black cruiser) was noted at 30-40% grade. That's about 17-21 degrees.
Quote:
 Originally posted by schluesser:
quote:
Originally posted by learn2turnagain: One thing that's important to point out is sometimes steepness is indicated in degrees of pitch and other times it's specified in % grade. Be sure you know which unit steepness is specific in. Grade is the vertical distance devided by the horizontal distance. (Some people use the term rise over run but that is incorrect. Rise/Run would be Y/R and grade is Y/X). Mathematically grade is the tangent of the angle. To convert for grade to degrees, it's the inverse tangent. A pitch of 45 degrees would be a grade of 100%. If White Heat has a grade of 55% (.55), it's pitch is 28.8 degrees. I was up at Tremblant last week and had a snack at the Trapper's Lodge on Soleil. They have some really cool old trail maps, one with very detailed notes on the original trails, like "easy here", "cliffs", "very steep". A section of the Kandahar trail (a black cruiser) was noted at 30-40% grade. That's about 17-21 degrees.
</font>[/quote]I learned that stuff in college but have since forgotten and was to lazy to look it up. Thanks for the refresher course. Anyway, that bank across the access road is pretty damned steep. You should see the looks I get from the cars driving up to the Bush.....
I ran across this thread while looking for grade information for a couple of trails. Does anyone know how steep the top of Black Hole is at Sunday River? Supposedly the top's steeper than the top of White Heat, but a lot shorter.

Also, someone was asking about the Blow Hole at Blackcomb. Here's a picture that a friend took when we were there last month.

Thanks for the photo. When I skied it I dropped in from the skiers left. Looks like you had and epic day there, no clouds.
I was just looking at a trail map of Aurora Peak at Sunday River and I don't remember Vortex being a double black.

Aurora Peak
We had absolutely gorgeous weather three out of the five days we were at Whistler Blackcomb. It was an amazing time. Also, most of the people were dropping in the left side of the Blowhole as you said, although a fair ammount were jumping in the right too.

As far as I can recall, Vortex has always been a double black ever since Aurora first opened. It's always been one of my favorite runs on that side of the mountain.
Seems to me Vortex has always been pretty much a sheet of glass too. I've never seen it with very good conditions even when Heat is nice carvable styrofoam. I guess it's just not a priority for lot's of snowmaking and maybe it faces the wrong way.

-Ken
The hour glass at Tuckerman's is called the chute and you can climb to the top and see some wild crazy steeps. One of my all time favorite steep runs. No bumps so if you fall watch out - its a good way to get hurt. After the climb trying to put your skies on can be interesting, too.
You can search 'time for tuckermans' and check out the shots. Very steep but the camera does not do justice.
If you climb all the way to the top of the Chute(not always possible), it flattens out and putting on your skis is a breeze. I think the Chute at Tuckermans is said to be about 50 degrees near the top, although this varies depending on how the snow has filled in during the preceding winter. Climbing up it or looking down though, the impression is its incredibly steep. getting as close to vertical as you could ever imagine actually skiing. Knowing this I laugh whenever I read about such and such ski area's slope being 50 degrees. No ski area I know of in the East has anything even close to this degree of steepness. What they are actually talking about is 50 percent or about 22 1/2 degrees! Nowhere near as steep.

You know it's steep when, climbing up, the slope is right in front of your face. With your skis over your shoulder, you have to carry them pointed to the side to keep the tips from hitting the snow. There are a few places around the Ravine, which are usually only skiable in exceptional years, which approach 60 degrees. That seems to be about the steepest pitch actually skiable, in my experience.
Quote:
 Originally posted by arcadie:You know it's steep when, climbing up, the slope is right in front of your face. With your skis over your shoulder, you have to carry them pointed to the side to keep the tips from hitting the snow.
That is the scariest part of the experience. When you realize that only the toes of your boots are what are holding you up on the wall. You don't want to slip and take out the skiers/boarders behind you. You know and have seen people sliding all the way down to the ravine floor who then have to climb up again to get their skis.

You look forward to putting your skis on so you can have some feeling of control. You quickly realize when it's that steep that you can't put your skis on unless you get on a ledge.

Getting back to steep runs. This is always a contentious issue. First of all, it only counts if it's a marked inbound run. There are plenty of 90 degree cliffs out of bounds that people have jumped. It also has to be some run you have to actually ski/board, not jump or straight-line. This means it has to be long enough that you have to make many turns that control your direction and speed.

There are always steeper, shorter sections of runs. The question is: what is steep enough, long enough that would require more skill to ski or ride?

The only marked run I know in the east where you would think twice about straight-lining any part of it, is Dynamite at Mont-Tremblant. It is half way down this run, always marked by ropes, where there is a steep and narrow section (the 'waterfall') of close to 100 feet vertical. The pitch is 40 degrees (NOT percent) and maybe more.

For some reason this run seems little known to people who visit Tremblant. Definetly steeper then anything else at Tremblant. It's on the bottom north side where it can only be accessed from the chair that goes halfway up.

Here is something steep, pretty steep .
Yeah, Dynamite is something. I think I mentioned it in another thread. Mt. T literture says slopes to 43deg so I think that 43deg is Dynamite.

What's really killer, IMHO opinion, about that drop is that they have to blow so much snow to make it skiable it ends up having a huge whale right at the top of the drop off, kinda like the mogul from hell. And we all know when there's a mogul, the top side of the mogul is not as steep as the trail and the bottom side is ... steeper. The last, and only time, I skied Dynamite, the first 15-20' of that 100' drop was defintely well over 45deg because it was the bottom side of a snowmaking whale.

I certainly agree that a pitch doesn't count unless you ski it. It's gotta be long enough to make, and have to make, at least three or four turns on to count. The bottom side of any mogul could be 90 degrees for 5 or 10 feet. Even the ledge on Dynamite would be a piece of cake if it ended in 10'. It's that you have to go over the ledge and then keep you \$%#% together for a few turns that make it hard.

-Ken
This year, everytime I was in Tremblant (and I was there 12 times) that "waterfall" section half-way down the run was closed by ropes. People would traverse to the adjacent run (Expo, which is also a "double diamond" run) and then get back on Dynamite below that "waterfall" section.

I never skied Dynamite myself, but I don't think it is much steeper than the Vertige run on the front side of the mountain. Vertige is however, much shorter run.
> I never skied Dynamite myself, but I don't think it is much steeper than the Vertige run on the front side of the mountain. Vertige is however, much shorter run.

When I skied it, Dynamite was without a doubt a whole different level of difficultly than Vertige and ZigZag.
Learn2turn,

You are probably right. I can only base my opinion on what another skier told me. But I should have added that this particular skier bypassed the "waterfall section" (via Expo) and he admited that that section looked very scary.

I assume that doing that waterfall section brings it to a whole new level. Does that make sense?
Quote:
 Originally posted by peak203f:It also has to be some run you have to actually ski/board, not jump or straight-line. This means it has to be long enough that you have to make many turns that control your direction and speed. .
Now that could be contentious....

One of my instructors tells me that in his younger days they always straightlined the blowhole - for jumping practice on the windlip.... does that take it out of the running?
If I remember right the top of the blow hole is at the end of the wind lip. Where the skiers are standing in the above photo is on the T bar side of the lip. I remember geting off the T bar and hiking up to the Glaicer enterence. If you look straight out from there you see the Wind Lip past the Blow Hole.
Black hole at sunday river is indeed steep!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan64

I ran across this thread while looking for grade information for a couple of trails. Does anyone know how steep the top of Black Hole is at Sunday River? Supposedly the top's steeper than the top of White Heat, but a lot shorter.
Black hole at sunday river has a 33 degree pitch. It's steep, but short and my favorite run there
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan01

Black hole at sunday river is indeed steep!

You just bumped an 11 year old thread, along with a 5 year old thread.

The irony is that there is an active thread on the exact subject you were obviously searching for.

http://www.epicski.com/t/29735/hardest-trail-in-the-east

Protip- When searching, click the radio button to switch things over to RECENCY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism

You just bumped an 11 year old thread, along with a 5 year old thread.

The irony is that there is an active thread on the exact subject you were obviously searching for.

http://www.epicski.com/t/29735/hardest-trail-in-the-east

Protip- When searching, click the radio button to switch things over to RECENCY.