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cuff pressure ankle flexion throughout a turn

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
What happens during a typical dynamic parallel turn inside your boots? Where is the pressure distributed or applied?
When is it active and when is it passive?
How do you get forward? get back?
Why?

Let's discuss the phases of a typical dynamic parallel turn referenced by the face of a clock. Twelve o,clock being at edge change, three o'clock being the fall line, and six being synonymous with twelve o'clock.

What is happening inside your boots? When are you dorsi flexing, plantar flexing? When are you relaxed? pressing shin to tongue? everting, inverting? Pressing against the spoiler?

I'd like to here your thoughts!
post #2 of 28
Great ide for a thread. However, being a forreigner and all I would like to have the terms you are using translated into plain english:
-dorsi flexing
-plantar flexing
-when are you relaxed
-pressing shin to tongue
-everting
-inverting
-pressing against the spoiler
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
tdk6,

-pulling the toes toward knees
-pushing toes away from knees
-relaxed - no muscular effort being exerted
-front of your lower leg pushed against the tongue of boot
- eversion, rolling the ankle from inside to out
- inversion, rolling the ankle from outside to in
- Spoiler, the rear cuff of boot, the back.

hope this helps.
post #4 of 28
12:00--edge change--holding eversion on uphill (old inside ski) momentarily while relaxing then allowing the skis to go flat and momentarily float across the snow while pulling both feet back with the hamstrings, more on steeps, drops, bumps, less on easy stuff.
12:30--beginning of next turn--strongly, smoothly everting inside foot and pulling it back with the hamstrings.
1:00 to 11:50--smoothly, continuously everting the inside foot, pulling it back with the hamstrings, using the hamstrings to hold the outside foot under the hip feeling the push against the snow as the ski arcs through the snow*, inverting the outside foot if more edge angle is needed for a tighter turn & pulling the body more forward over the foot with the hamstrings if a tighter turn is needed. The feet are kept loose and relaxed with most effort in the ankle and hamstrings.

*If the weight is correctly positioned over the arch of the outside foot, or maybe the forward part of the arch, the feeling of the snow "pushing back" on the arcing ski is felt just right. If the weight is back, this isn't felt.
post #5 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
- eversion, rolling the ankle from inside to out
- inversion, rolling the ankle from outside to in

hope this helps.
Bud, sounds like you've got these reversed.
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
Don't think so?

Eversion: to twist the foot outward and upward from the midline
Inversion: to twist the foot inward and downward toward the midline.

Am I missing something?
post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Don't think so?


Am I missing something?
In your first definitions:

Quote:
- eversion, rolling the ankle from inside to out
- inversion, rolling the ankle from outside to in
Sounded like you were saying eversion is rolling the ankle out, which raises the big toe, and exposes the sole of the foot to the inside. That is actually inversion.

And sounded like you were saying inversion is rolling the ankle in, which raises the little toe, and exposes the sole of the foot to the outside. That is actually eversion.

Your second definitions;

Quote:
Eversion: to twist the foot outward and upward from the midline
Inversion: to twist the foot inward and downward toward the midline.
"Upward from midline" still sounds like pointing sole in for Eversion, and "downward toward midline" still sounds like pointing sole out for Inversion??? That would still be backwards. And the twisting in/out thing,,, are you referring to adduction/abduction???

Am I just grossly misreading you?
post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 
Fastman, What is a better definition?

Rolling the foot out away from midline raises the little toe and drops the big toe in my mind.

I think to be more clear I should have said twist or roll the "foot" rather than ankle?

eversion is closer to pronation, inversion is closer to supination type movements no?
post #9 of 28
Quote:
Fastman, What is a better definition?
Bud, I did a bit of searching for a very KISS definition. Explanations can get overly technical in this area, but here's the best one I've found. Comes from a medical institution in London, and I think it makes it pretty understandable for laymen:

Quote:
Inversion of the feet brings the soles together; Eversion causes the soles to point away from the midline
They go on to define midline as:

Quote:
A sagittal plane is any plane which divides any part of the body into right and left portions. The median plane is the midline sagittal plane which divides the whole body into right and left halves.
Midline would be located between the feet. As such, your statement about rolling the foot away from the midline acting to raise the little toe

Quote:
Rolling the foot out away from midline raises the little toe and drops the big toe in my mind.
seems reversed. Rolling the feet away from the midline would in my mind tip the feet away from the midline, lift the big toe, and expose the soles to the feet to each other, as stated similarly in the definition I quoted above.

Quote:
eversion is closer to pronation, inversion is closer to supination type movements no?
Yep, that statement is right on. Eversion is part of pronation, and Inversion is a part of supination. Another bit from the same site:

Quote:
Terminology in the foot can be confusing. The term pronation is used for a combined movement, which consists primarily of eversion but also includes some dorsiflexion and forefoot abduction. Similarly, supination is primarily inversion, but also includes some plantarflexion and forefoot, adduction relative to the hindfoot.
I think the terms inversion/eversion get misused a lot in skiing circles. Not only do I see/hear them often reversed, as people mistakenly think the "In" in inversion means to roll the ankle/foot "in". They also refer to the act of tipping a ski on edge as inverting/everting the foot,,, which is not always the case. Sometimes it's just tipping the leg, and the foot does not evert/invert at all.
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I think the terms inversion/eversion get misused a lot in skiing circles. Not only do I see/hear them often reversed, as people mistakenly think the "In" in inversion means to roll the ankle/foot "in". They also refer to the act of tipping a ski on edge as inverting/everting the foot,,, which is not always the case. Sometimes it's just tipping the leg, and the foot does not evert/invert at all.
I think the trem just gets used too much in skiing circles. A year or two ago I heard a new instructor telling her level one class to "evert" thier feet. I wonder how many of them came back... A guy got to the bottom and asked me, "what is she talking about." "Just do this". "Why didn't she say so?"
post #11 of 28
I agree, Epic. There's no reason I can think of for students needing to come to understand the biomechanics of Eversion/inversion. Just teach movement patterns that cause it to happen. I see them as an automatic byproduct of good skiing skills, not as a primary focus.
post #12 of 28
Suggestion. A lot of (often excessive ) posts go into explaining who means what & 40 posts later they finally agree to what they mean. Is it possible to start a section of what means what with thorough or clear explaination & even with those cool BB moving diagrams ? A real true Data Dicitonary ??? Then when people use these terms/explainations, it is already agreed upon ?...or they can go look them up before using the term. Okay. that would really mean 1 specific thread in alphabetical order with agreed upon terms. It would require the forum hash out those term first & agree upon the term & def based upon community understanding of them before being posted in the final thread. (run, on I know). I'm guessing this has already been done somewhere , (like PSIA, CSIA, etc.. but not neccessarily accessable or known by epic members). Or do I need to extensively use the search function & just shut up ?
post #13 of 28
Bud,
I didn't read a specific radius turn so I am assuming a turn radius somewhat shorter than the sidecut of the ski you are riding. In this example, As my skis move away from me (12~2) I feel tongue pressure somewhere around the seams of the tongues. As the pressure builds (2~4) I feel the arch of the outside foot and the sixth toe of the inside foot more than any other part of the boot. Through the finish (4~6) I feel the side of both of the fore feet (turn side) and the tongue pressure builds progressively as I flex and continue to steer the skis across the hill. I briefly feel cuff neutral through the cross over/under/through(12&6). This has always been a mystery since I try to steer the skis at a constant rate throughout the turn. I know the longer the leg the harder it is to apply leg steering and when under greater load (during the last half of the turn), it takes more effort to keep the skis turning at the same rate.
Riding the sidecut I stay pretty cuff neutral and I feel a little lateral cuff and ankle pressure, along with pressure on the soles of the feet.
In short turns it feels similar to the first example with shorter duration, higher intensity and more dynamic pressure changes.
post #14 of 28
911, I tried to describe a turn without a lot of terms. Which only leaves percieved tactile sensations. Hope this passes your muster. If I take more terms out of my descriptions they wouldn't make much sense. Which is why IMO terms are a useful shorthand but like you I feel they can be over used.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
jasp
post #16 of 28
Hey Bud,

I thought this was a good thread you started, I would like to learn more about inversion and eversion....it seems that someone here believes you got your terms completly backwards....

How could that be? You are not wrong again are you?
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Don't think so?

Eversion: to twist the foot outward and upward from the midline
Inversion: to twist the foot inward and downward toward the midline.

Am I missing something?
What is wrong about this definition? Do tell.....

No, don't think I am! I understand what the movements are but maybe I used the wrong word to describe the movement. And because of this all the sharks like yourself have circled to tout their superior understanding of a very simple topic. Excuse me!
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
What is wrong about this definition? Do tell.....

No, don't think I am! I understand what the movements are but maybe I used the wrong word to describe the movement. And because of this all the sharks like yourself have circled to tout their superior understanding of a very simple topic. Excuse me!
I think post #9, shows where you are wrong....just clarifying Bud...hard to follow your posts when you constantly use wrong terms, or get them backwards etc....why so defensive?: I guess we know what happens when someone dare ask questions from a "Ask a Pro" AND "Pro Bootfitter".
post #19 of 28
The thing about inversion and eversion is that the foot moves in more than one plane simultaneously.

Eversion is movement of the sole outward. Little toe rotating up

Inversion is movement of the sole inward. Big toe rotating up.

With inversion there is also rotation of the fore foot inward. With eversion there is rotation of the fore foot outward as well.

This will maybe add some context and clarificaton to what is being discussed.
post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
911, I tried to describe a turn without a lot of terms. Which only leaves percieved tactile sensations. Hope this passes your muster. If I take more terms out of my descriptions they wouldn't make much sense. Which is why IMO terms are a useful shorthand but like you I feel they can be over used.
JASP, you always do a nice job of describing as well as handling the tactile sensations. I usaully have a clear grasp of them after reading your comments. If not, I'll ask. My suggestion was in general for use in all threads as soooooo many terms seem to have a multitude of meanings, correct & incorrect among the populace of the forum. I hate to pick up an incorrect definition/understanding & then have to figure out the real one. But, then again, there is learning in that too. But wasted time also.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Don't think so?

Eversion: to twist the foot outward and upward from the midline
Inversion: to twist the foot inward and downward toward the midline.

Am I missing something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
The thing about inversion and eversion is that the foot moves in more than one plane simultaneously.

Eversion is movement of the sole outward. Little toe rotating up

Inversion is movement of the sole inward. Big toe rotating up.

With inversion there is also rotation of the fore foot inward. With eversion there is rotation of the fore foot outward as well.

This will maybe add some context and clarificaton to what is being discussed.
Got it, thank you both. As the stirrup turns, the ankle is very involved, onward & upward. Bud, check w/Lonnie about the influence of that & the hips. In my thinking it would correspond & that would be awesome for me. But, I could be understanding it all wrong. Let me know.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Got it, thank you both. As the stirrup turns, the ankle is very involved, onward & upward. Bud, check w/Lonnie about the influence of that & the hips. In my thinking it would correspond & that would be awesome for me. But, I could be understanding it all wrong. Let me know.
Eversion = presure towards the big toe side of foot
Inversion = pressure towards little toe side of foot
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I think post #9, shows where you are wrong....just clarifying Bud...hard to follow your posts when you constantly use wrong terms, or get them backwards etc....why so defensive?: I guess we know what happens when someone dare ask questions from a "Ask a Pro" AND "Pro Bootfitter".
skidude why do you post stuff like this ?
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfits View Post
Eversion = presure towards the big toe side of foot
Inversion = pressure towards little toe side of foot
Thank you. That brought up another thought. As the pressure/big toe goes down, the weight sinks down & lower, that side of the hip trails just a bit, exterior leg/hip muscles used w/inside muscles. When inverted, big toe is up, weight is lighter, hip tends to lead, muscles used are the interior leg muscles. Putting this in a horse/dressage perspective. Which doesn't make sense to most, but does to me.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
skidude why do you post stuff like this ?


I dont understand your question. I was seeking clarification. If you asked somone for directions and they said go straight for 6 blocks, turn left at the light, then take your first right, and then second left...and your there.....but then later found out this person had their left and right mixed up, what value are the directions?

Worse then none if you ask me.
post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfits View Post
Eversion = presure towards the big toe side of foot
Inversion = pressure towards little toe side of foot

This is my understanding too and has been for along while, unfortunately I chose an initial definition that confused some here, for that I apologize. I believe my posts #3,6,and 8 say the same thing as greg in different ways though some may interpret them differently.

I was not defining the terms under load, simply holding the bare foot off the floor and articulating it. It's funny how crazy this has gotten because of different perspectives. I agree these are easily confused terms and I should have been more concise.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
How could that be? You are not wrong again are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I think post #9, shows where you are wrong....just clarifying Bud...hard to follow your posts when you constantly use wrong terms, or get them backwards etc....why so defensive?: I guess we know what happens when someone dare ask questions from a "Ask a Pro" AND "Pro Bootfitter".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post


I dont understand your question. I was seeking clarification.
You could have looked it up using google or wikipedia. Clarified it yourself.
http://www.octc.kctcs.edu/gcaplan/an...s/Image577.gif

I think you were only posting to stir up. I don't understand that.
Why not try being constructive for once?
post #28 of 28
I think setting the record straight is constructive.
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