Skier vs. Skier collision - Page 3

whtmt

Bottom line. The mountain doesn't care and ski patrol is not the local police force.

To give you some real perspective search the posts on this forum about the negligence of one 16 year old boarder who killed an inocent young woman at Jackson Hole Wyoming and basically got away with murder. Someone else will have to lead you to the posts and article from the local papers about that terrible tradgedy. I don't remember the young woman's name or when it occurred. So, no matter how you cut it stinks. It's a great sport, but reckless people are ruining it for all of us.

Sorry to paint such a dismal picture, since I just came off a wonderful day of skiing with my 7 year old granddaughter who gave me the best day in skiing I have had in many years. Hope you and your wife heal both physically and emotionally from the incident.

whtmt & Mackenzie 911

DockerZ, I'm very sorry that your wife was hit, and very glad that her injuries were so minor.

That having been said, get over it. Sounds to me like your wife took an unexpected turn, and little speed racer behind her couldn't change direction fast enough. Speed racer may be technically at fault, but your wife probably could have done something to prevent it as well.

Accidents will always happen, especially when you're strapping two pieces of lubed up wood to your feet and hurling yourself down a mountain. This particular accident may have been easily prevented, but with 20/20 hindsight we can say that about pretty much all accidents.

Be grateful this accident left no lasting injuries, and live and let live.

Brady, his wife did nothing wrong.

Read the code.

If you can't figure it out, what can say? Try one more time?

Am I against speed or racing ... ummmm yeah .... right ... :

Brady- His wife had NOTHING to do with the accident. The downhill skier/rider ALWAYS has the right of way. The uphill skier must always take the steps to avoid skiers below them. ALWAYS- no execeptions!!!

The downhill skier can go anywhere they want, even as unpredictably as they want. As the uphill skier you need to expect the unexpected and give enough room when attempting to overtake a skier so there is no contact. They can't 'cut you off'- you can only not give enough room to avoid them. You are responsible to miss them no matter what. Slow down, or give them more room if that is what it takes.

Read the Skier's Responsibily Code. Always take care to avoid the downhill skier or it is your fault.

Why is this hard for some people? No one needs to get hit from behind.

Sad that even in a Patrol forum it is such a challenge to assert the most basic premise of the Code . I guess we need to try all that much harder to educate . Btw , yanked the pass off a boarder that careened through 4 pairs of crossed skis and nearly crashed into a friend as I was assessing a patient on new years eve . "I didn't see " says he .

O.K. this is for the groups opinion.

Having seen discussions like this on another forum that was about people who do not know the Responsibility Code or fail to follow that code.

What would you all think about having to "renew your license" to ski every season prior to being able to purchase a ski pass?

What I have been mulling over is that each person would need to take and pass a short written test before each ski season. It might take as long as 15 minutes.

The test would consist of sections of the Skier Responsibility Code and that each prospective skier be able to recognize those sections and define what they mean.

Allow for the option to not "renew your license" and be able to purchase a ski pass but discount the cost of a lift pass by say 10-15% for those who comply.

Have the NSAA formulate the test and issue each passed prospective skier a card that would be recognized at all ski areas?

My area is currently a quiet and uncrowded area but as we grow we will see an increase in the types of accidents that are becoming more and more common.

In your opinion, would this help or make no difference whatsoever.

Thanks

The code isn't perfect. Most skiers are FAR from perfect skiers. Why would anyone make a significant change in direction on a the hill without 1st looking uphill? It's not in the code, but it's the right thing to do. You do it in a car, right? It just makes sense. So, yea, this guys wife was right by the code - but, it's just not worth the risk of having any skier (good or bad) slam into you and injure or kill you and/or them. Look up!

Because those are the people that are concentrating completely on not falling and/or are too scared to be able to do so .

You're absolutely right but I think it is difficult for many because they have no concept of that degree of control while on skis or snowboard. A great many people engage in the sport without very good control. Their rationalizations derive from that.

My Lessons

I used to ski bum in the 70's & 60's, taught fulltime for many years and them stopped skiing in 1980. Just started back 3 years ago and am loving it, hope to get 60 mid-weeks days this year.
I got surprised quickly and had some collisions and near misses. Whoo things have changed. You have to be carefull.
My first incident was mid week, about 10:00am, no one on the run infront of me, no one behind. Checked crefully, hit it for some high speed GS. Up to speed and carving big turns - suddenly a kid pops out of the trees on his backside didn't even look. All I had time for was to lay it down. 100 meters later, I pick my self up - I missed the kid thank god. If we had hit it would have been hospital time.
It never occured to me than someone would just ride right out of the tress with out even a glance. Since then I have learned, they all do, they never look and really they don't care.
So my survival strategy:
1). Ski early, be first on the lift. You can usually get several great runs before the traffic starts.
2). Always expect someone to pop out of the trees onto a run with out looking.
3). After getting off the lift, stop check out who is leaving and how many. sometimes it works to just wait a minute until a little crowd clears.
4).Be carefull near trails leading to or leaving Terrain Parks, or trails paralleling them.
5). If you enjoy carving round turns, at any speed, exercise caution. Most folks are skidding straight down the fallline. They may not see you, or anticipate that you will carve around infront of them. After a few turns look over your shoulder up hill and see what is comming staright down at speed.
6). Don't carve your turns on the trails that lead right straight to the lift line. Many folks are just gunning straight down here and bleed speed when they hit the flats. If you are making round turns here, eventually you will get hit.
7). I usually stop after 30 or 40 turns, and pull off to the edge and check what is happening around me.
8). Be very carefull around snowboarders, then can not see you on their backside turn and they can easily turn right into you. Often they can not hear you, they are in their own world with the music cranked.
9). Making tight short radius turns on the very edge of a run will not keep you safe. They can come out of the trees or straight across the slope into you on their backside turn.
10). Black Diamond & Double Black, ungroomed are usually the safest, and people on them are skilled.
11) Perfect cord on well groomed Black & Blue runs are the most dangerous. I love carving turns in this stuff with my slalom skiis, however, many folks will be just tearing straight down, keep looking over your shoulder.
12). If certain runs start getting busy, change, move to another lift or hit some steep ungroomed.
13). Wear a helmet, keep your head up and remember that most folks will not expect you to bring a turn around across the fallline.
Cheers

IMO, both skiers were at fault, yes the attitude of the young girl makes me dislike her completely but at the same time I have been skiing on blue runs in COMPLETE CONTROl but at a faster pace than beginners on the same run only to have them RANDOMLY change directions and cut across the side of the hill. I have never been hit nor hit (knock on wood) by a skier or snowboarder (other than my friends trying to spray me and judging their speed poorly). My advice is that your wife should be looking uphill before changing directions. I know the uphill skier is responsible for avoiding the people below them but if you're coming down a slope and notice a novice making 10-20ft turns and you plan accordingly to pass them and as you do they decide to widen their turn to 30-40ft I feel its just as much if not more of their fault than yours. If they are flat out of control its totally different. On crowded slopes all skier/riders should be responsable for holding their lines and being aware of everyone else. We are talking intermediate blue runs (not green/kiddy slopes where people can barely make it down the mt.)

*yawn* your wrong , please read entire thread to see why . *sigh*

pdxammo... hahaha you must have had trouble reading what i wrote. I made a few words bold to help you understand where the key points in my statement of how I think the accepted "rules" are wrong.

"I know the uphill skier is responsible for avoiding the people below them but if you're coming down a slope and notice a novice making 10-20ft turns and you plan accordingly to pass them and as you do they decide to widen their turn to 30-40ft I feel its just as much if not more of their fault than yours. "

Frankly if a skier totally changes direction infront of me and I happen to hit them at no point would I consider it to be more my fault than theirs. I would makes sure they were not hurt and even apologize but if they then began to give me attitude I would prob. lose it and yell at them :. The "skiers code" might tell me I'm at fault but never in a million years would I blame myself (assuming I was skiing/riding at a controlled speed). The thought that you're skiing "out of control" just because you can't avoid something or someone that randomly jumps out in your way is absurd.

Well you are wrong. If you are above and skiing too fast to adjust to a forward skier's direction change, then you you are in theory, out of control. Either you were too close to the skier to begin with or the trail was too narrow and your speed was to high.

A skier shouldn't do a radical direction change without consideration for other's. But they do, and it is still the uphill skier who must avoid. I try to look when I move out of my line, but once I didn't and there was a crash. So a defensive skier looks, but the uphill skier ought to be able to avoid an unexpected change in direction.

If you cannot avoid the skier below you judging his speed, your speed and all his possible future positions at that speed no matter where he turns, you have to bite the bullet and stay behind him, even if that means throwing them sideways and hitting the brakes. If you see him ahead of you as you are skiing down the run and he makes an unexpected turn and you hit him, it is entirely your fault.

It's people like you that make dads like me:...if my 5 YO makes any turn, in any direction at any time and you hit her from above and don't take responsibility for YOUR mistake.....then either the police will take care of it or I will

If I hit a 5yr old I would react the same way I would with most other people. I would stop, make sure they are alright and apologize, feeling terrible about it even if they weren't hurt. My issue is when I am skiing in control (IMO), I never really bomb groomers, and I happen to hit someone when they turn sharply across the hill and they begin to rip into me, I become defensive, its called an accident for a reason. I feel there is a lot of age discrimination/snowboarder discrimination (I am 22 and I ski mostly but used to snowboard. I have NEVER hit anyone in about 18 years of skiing). Yes, if someone hit me from behind b/c they were following too close I would be upset too but if they weren't acting like an A$$ I would accept an apology and cont. on with my day. I think many skiers are just oblivious to everyone else on the hill regardless of their ability and that is what bothers me. They know that the uphill skier is at fault and just don't care that their actions could've easily helped prevent the accident. They get hit by someone above but they just skied across a crowded slope without caring enough to signal or glance up hill. There are plenty of situations when the DOWNHILL skier is the one out of control or trying to ski past their ability. Yes I KNOW its considered by most people and the resort to be my fault but IMO its not entirely. I ski in control and almost never ski fast on a crowded blue, I am very aware of my surroundings but that doesn't mean people have never surprised me with a turn choice on multiple occasions.

SkiDawg, I highly doubt its people like me that make fathers like you upset. I bet its the opposite, if more people skied like me your daughter would be much safer on the slope. I was raised real well and treat others with respect. If I ever hit a child skiing I would feel absolutly terrible and take responsability. If I hit a 35 year adult who is oblivious to everyone on the hill and immediately jumps down my throat even though they aren't injured and its just because I happen to be 22 I would have no prob. arguing with them.

Ghost, I most often do bite the bullet and throw the skis sideways and wait for the crowds to go further down the slope so I can cont. to enjoy my day.

again, if I'm driving on the freeway in the left lane and some idiot in front of me randomly cuts across from the far right lane without signaling and gets hit, it's his own damn fault. Skiing works the same way, if I'm going slower than the general flow of traffic, I don't cut across without looking uphill and making sure no one is in my blind spot.

People don't seem to realize this, and while I don't deny that the downhill skier has the right of way, many people don't understand this concept very well. For example, last week a co-worker of mine was skiing down a blue run to get to a lift and sweep the upper part of the mountain. He was skiing next to (not above) another skier, who randomly made a hard right turn and almost ran into him. This skier proceeded to begin yelling at my co-worker for not yielding the right of way when he (the other skier) was in the wrong.

now this a different situation than the original one in this post, but my point is that most people have a tendency to ignore other people and think they are right when they may not be

climbin, I agree. I know as far as the code is concerned there are no exceptions but I feel there are many rules that are not completely right. As far as the original poster I would've been upset in that situation too. If someone came flying in and hit my girlfriend and proceeded to give us attitude I'd be furious. I am talking about a situation when maybe its more like a T-bone than a rear-end accident or skiers get tangled at the legs rather than slammed into from behind. As far as the original poster...would you be upset if you were driving on the highway (50mph in a 55) and there was an accident in the middle of the road around a bend, you rightfully swerved to the right to avoid the accident but in doing so the vehicle coming up on your right at 65 (not unreasonable speed) couldn't then avoid you and rearended you. Would you be upset with teh driver of the 65 mph car? I am taking the young womans attitude out of the equation. I would be far more upset over the attitude and lack of remorse she showed than the fact someone I loved was actually hit.
There are plenty of "hotdoggers" that ski way to fast for a crowded blue run and if they cause an accident they should be punished. I just feel there are situations when all the blame shouldn't fall on the uphill skier.
As far as punishment (copper now does a "ski fast, lose pass, go to class" type thing) if they aren't losing their pass for a few weeks its not much of a punishment. Its not a matter of educating skiers before each season, the ones that would get anythign out of a class are already smart enough not to ski like idiots. The sport/mts are becoming more popular and the risks cont. to grow but being on the defensive when in a crowded area will help prevent injuries and accidents.

Boy, this statement is like the Judge addressing the court at the end of a trial.

This says it all and if anyone disagrees with what Ghost said, they are completely in the wrong.

The operative statement here.

yea, 18 years of skiing prob. isn't long enough for me to know that some skiers are oblivious to everyone else on the mountain ragardless if they are near the top or bottom of the slope. I'll come back to this topic in 20 more years when I really know whats going on and finally realize that its never the lower skiers fault.


(but let me ask you one more question... what if a skier tries to cause an accident? they are skiing with the sole purpose of making crazy turns acting like an A$$ and aiming to get in someones way. or what if they've been drinking? is it still the uphill skiers fault?)
All I am looking for here is for someone to admit you can't go to a situation/accident and immediately put ALL the blame on the uphill skier. Throw me a bone here...there HAS to be exceptions. Doesn't there?

No exceptions.

Are you serious? You saw them doing that and you skied past them. You assess the risk. The person you describe is *easy* to spot and miss.
Just how small is the area you're describing? An acre? Go somewhere else...

When you see a wonderful skiier with beautiful slow turns and you go a little closer as you pass. He suddenly rips out to the right and you hit him. :

Your fault.

(He just saw a nasty accident and reacted instinctively. I grant you it was hard to avoid because there were no warnings so your normal pattern analysis lead you to think it wouldn't happen. Nonetheless - your fault.)


I think the fact is that we all take risks as we pass people; we mitigate by passing as they turn the other way or by pole clicking or calling out or by going reasonably wide. Very occasionally we get it wrong - we're at fault.

Passing is a risky business.

You can certainly reduce the risk by passing at a low relative speed - but if you're both moving quickly and you *do* collide then all kinds of nasty things can happen (as in any fall).

Getting it wrong isn't 'evil' - but the consequences can be serious.

OTOH risk is something we live with all the time too - humans just haven't evolved* to judge it very well...

(* it is OK to use that word on these forums isn't it )

I was on a long very narrow trail with some nice ripped up powder and moguls and I wanted to pass the guy in front of me. I was watching his skiing pattern and he turned right and I tried to pass him on the left. He then made a very quick turn to the left and there he was in front me and I had no where to go but right over top of him. I railroaded my skis around his body and skis and grabbed his chest in my arms. As we are skiing down the hill with him in my arms I came to a stop and placed him down on the ground very gently. He said he was ok. I apologized. I figured I got extra style points for a gentle fall to the ground. Bottom line, I was the up hill skier and it was still my fault.

catskills. i have to first say I'm glad you were both alright. although you did paint a very funny picture and I can see how that would happen. If it happened to me I'd like to think I would've reacted the same way and kept both of us from getting hurt. In a situation like that I'd do the same thing as far as apologizing and making sure they were alright. I guess my problem really only comes from the skiers attitude afterwards. If the skier that you took down then proceeded to flip out on you (even though they were fine and it was a harmless accident) would that upset you? It would drive me crazy. Although I would take responsability under all circumstances (mostly for the sake of argument and being polite) I couldn't help but defend my own skiing.
It really has nothing to do with the way either skier is skiing that bothers me. Its the attitude of either side afterwards that does.
Earlier this season I was skiing at a reasonable pace on a blue groomer in the middle right of a slope and proceeded to stop to wait for my girlfriend. A woman behind me was caught off guard and proceeded to yell at me as she flew by. The attitude is what bothered me. I understand she was skiing close and wasn't expecting me to stop (I don't blame her) but the attitude she gave me as she skied past was unnecessary (specially because she was at fault). I guess I would like to think that if the downhill skier was hit but unhurt they would accept an apology and cont. on with their day. I just don't want to be immediately thought of as some reckless rouge (spelling?) teenager who skis like an A$$ because I might have been caught off guard and tangled up with someone. Again, another rant...

Oh and LBT, those earlier examples were hypothetical...never seen anything like that before.

Skiing code test -> ticket discount...

Yep - make sure it doesn't intrude on the skiing though.

I think it's more important for skiers who ski 5 days a year than those that ski all season. Frankly it's not going to change everyone and those who ski all season are aware of ski safety, the code etc.

It's the part-timers (like me) who don't always know the rules. (I was barely aware of the code until I started reading up on skiing on the web!)

If, when I bought my first ticket, I was offered a video on skiing safety and rules/guidelines I would have *jumped* at the chance. I wonder how many parents would too? Give away a T-shirt/helmet-ears/swag and kids would be happy as well.

Heck - how many areas even bother to have a section on their website with a video about ski safety. Look at the car industry - they *sell* based on safety - surely the resorts could do something positive along those lines?


It also wouldn't hurt if the aforementioned video/training had a section on saying 'sorry' when you do screw up...

drewski: just bad writing on my part. I knew what you meant

And I know what you mean about other people getting irate - I know I've been livid at other people and a simple acknowledgement of responsibility and remorse on their part is incredibly calming. So where I feel I've made a lapse in judgement I apologise.
When people do that kind of thing and then laugh or jeer - *THAT* is what starts fights...

Another comment though: whilst the downhill skier is not 'at fault'; I do think skiers are obliged to ski responsibly. Part of that is awareness and non-random behaviour. So whilst the uphill skier is at fault - the downhill skier can minimise the chances of the accident happening.

Personally I don't like hospitals so I try to minimise the chances of being hit by an uphill skier - but if I get it wrong I reserve the right to be in the right!

Well you cant consider one portion of the code independently of the others , "always stop in a place that is safe for you and others " yes it would have been her fault if she hit you . However its a skiers responsibility to pause where you can be seen and avoided just as it is to "look uphill when starting or merging " So you are correct that sometimes its not the uphill persons fault , but if they can see the person ie. they didnt pop out of the woods or sit down on the underside of a kicker , they are going to be at fault.
This isn't always an easy thing . I allowed my self a brief lapse of attention recently , just as a young skier fell . he moved to one side and I thought I would go around the other when he suddenly pitched himself the opposite direction . Of course I struck him and despite everyone being ok and the difficulty of the situation it was absolutely my fault . It can be hard to swallow but we have to be very careful to make sure everyone can enjoy the sporrt safely .

A women went through a red light and I hit her passenger side rear quarter panel. The police office told me there was not enough evidence to give her a ticket. ...........Some time later after the damage esteimate, I am talking to the women's insurance company (InsCo) on the phone. InsCo says, I am 40 percent responsible since by law I am required to drive defensively and avoid accidents. This means they will pay for 60 percent of my damages. I argue with the InsCo on the phone saying their insured went through a red light. InsCo says, how does 35 percent I am responsible so they will pay me for 65 percent of my damages. Light bulb goes off. Wow they deal I can play this game. I argue some more and got it to 30 percent my fault and 70 percent their insured fault. They paid me for 70 percent of my damages.

So why this long story on an auto accident. I think with skiing and riding its not about 100 percent one persons fault. Its about a percentage of who is at fault.

Ok. Here's one. A skier behind you passes you just as you are getting to that one gap between snowboarders standing gaping at the steep section just over a crest and cuts you off, like someone passing you on a road just as you are getting to a one lane bridge. At the moment of impact you hit him, but he came from behind you.