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Base Bevel Guide recs

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
This thing any good?

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000

What about this one?

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000

Love to buy from a bear versus RR if possible.
post #2 of 32
The only base beveler I would ever personally use is This one.

Your base bevel is just too important and too difficult to fix to trust it to a cheap tool.
post #3 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
The only base beveler I would ever personally use is This one.
Your base bevel is just too important and too difficult to fix to trust it to a cheap tool.

Hmm. I'm a little edgey today, when I first saw this reply, I thought, I'm not sure what the link is, but the SVST is the one that I use with good success...and there it was in the link. I've tried the second one that the OP included a link to, but I didn't like it.
I have the SVST in 0.5 deg and 1.0 deg and they are very easy to use and very precise.
They are also available through Slidewright for less.
post #4 of 32

FYI we also carry SVST Final Cut and the SkiMan adjustable & dedicated base bevelers.

(Thanks quick9 )

The Final Cut:


Edited by Alpinord - 9/23/11 at 8:41am
post #5 of 32
Thread Starter 

$$

Good stuff.

Hmmm SVST a bit steep $$ to ask for for Xmas from the in-laws.

Gee I thought the second one looked pretty decent.

The BEAST any good? Like the price but looks chincy. ??
post #6 of 32
How much base beveling, durability & absolute precision do you require? Over time the Final Cut won't be regretted like any nice tool. The Beast has a good following as do the SkiMan/Maplus bevelers. The Beast, though made of plastic and metal, will last a while. The SkiMan is a bit more 'substantial'. The SVST is just plain sweet.

FTR, here are images of all three:

The Beast, SkiMan (adjustable) & SVST respectively:






I love this quote from RacerRick (former Canadian team downhiller):
Quote:
We could include a hotel room key in the kit - when placed between a file and ski base it produces a 1 degree base bevel angle (I'm not kidding, one of the Canadian team techs actually uses room keys when on the road).
post #7 of 32
Thread Starter 
I was a believer on the tape around the file trick, but some mean bears goofed on me.

For $20, I am thinking beast. How can I lose?
post #8 of 32

What bevel angle(s) do you need? I have an 'never used/open box' 1° Beast I'll put under 'Specials' for $15 if interested.


Edited by Alpinord - 9/23/11 at 8:42am
post #9 of 32
Thread Starter 
T. Good Deal Tried to send ya a pm.

Was hoping for a .5.

My very very very trusted shop guy talked me into a 0 and 2 stonegrind. I am annoyed.
post #10 of 32

Never rec'd PM. EpicSki was down for a while........here's our Contact page.

Lot's of people on this forum recommend a 0° base grind so you can set your own.


Edited by Alpinord - 9/23/11 at 8:42am
post #11 of 32
I get a 0/0 stone grind and set the angles myself. I use the SVST base angles and the Maplus side angles. I also use tape to protect the base. Honestly, the cheaper guides don't work. It all depends on how exact you want to be. I've bought new skis with 5deg plus base angles. Good luck dealing with that. I set the base at 0.5 or 1.0 deg and the sides at 2deg or 3 deg. They often aren't that accurate from the factory - especially the small ones.
post #12 of 32
I've used the beast tool and it would probably be my second choice. The biggest danger when setting a base bevel is to over bevel. If you get a .5 you should be fine. Just don't get too enthusiastic while filing.
post #13 of 32

Additionally, for those more value conscious or starting out, or simple wants to mess around with different angles, the T4B Razor does provide multiple base & side edge angles (as does the Xact). SkiMan offers two dedicated base bevels (.5° & 1°) and an adjustable one. The Razor also provides the option to use diamonds for base beveling and polishing nicely and it can be used to measure angles, coupled with using a Sharpie or other marker on the edges:



Personally, I doubt if I used any of the base bevelers, there would be enough of a difference in precision to affect my skiing. I'm not worried about winning races but smooth and consistent feel and turns in a large variety of snow conditions and terrain. I'll bet this is also true for the vast majority of skiers and it gets down to personal preferences and simple economics. (sprinkled with intangibles and superstitions . But as with all things recreational, YMMV. That's why we carry a range of options for the Recreational, Performance minded, to the Serious tuner.


Edited by Alpinord - 9/23/11 at 8:44am
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer256 View Post
This thing any good?

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000

What about this one?

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000

Love to buy from a bear versus RR if possible.
I gave away my Beast base bevelrs and sold my Beast side bevelers. Your base bevel is so crucial to your ski's performance this is not the tool to have a "cheap" attack on!

No question SVST final cut is the way to go. Only drawback is if your ski has any concavity in the tip or tail the glide of the SVST sits down in thhose low spots and you do not get enogh base bevel in those areas.

Atomic is particulalrly subject to this but other manufacturers have the same issue. You can not usually base grind enough to make those skis complelty flat and honestly you don't need to. A bit of concavity in the tip and tail as long as your skis is flat about 1" in from each edge wil ski fine.

Because of this I like using a base bevel guide that spans the entire width of the ski. Mybe that MaPlus Alpinord posted would work. Although I prefer a guide with a set angle.

I use this one at times http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000
post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Because of this I like using a base bevel guide that spans the entire width of the ski. Mybe that MaPlus Alpinord posted would work. Although I prefer a guide with a set angle.
FTR, the SkiMan/Maplus base bevelers come in either 0.5°, 1° or adjustable from 0.5° to 1.5° and do not span the entire ski to the opposite edge.
post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
Personally, I doubt if I used any of the base bevelers, there would be enough of a difference in precision to affect my skiing. I'm not worried about winning races but smooth and consistent feel and turns in a large variety of snow conditions and terrain. I'll bet this is also true for the vast majority of skiers and it gets down to personal preferences and simple economics.
While this may very well be true, Alpinord, I assure you that those of us who buy tools like the SVST have convinced ourselves that it does make a big enough difference to justify the cost.
post #17 of 32
Betcha, I've rationalized and justified : more tuning tools than you have.

Happy Thanksgiving to all you tuning fanatics!
post #18 of 32

SVST vs. Beast

I'm confused about the Beast vs. SVST discussion. To me, they appear to be built to functionally do the exact same thing, with the latter looking to be a better built tool. The SVST claims that it stops cutting when the bevel is set, does the Beast work this same way or are they somehow more different in function?
post #19 of 32
One big difference is the feet on the edge side of the beveler. these are made of a very, very hard plastic material called Delrin (see delring info below) on the SVST and are replaceable as they will wear over time. Also the SVST is all machined aircraft grade aluminum and stainless steel

The beast is all plastic (except the glide) and thewhere the plastic meets the edge will eventaully wear and as it does your bevel will become inaccurate and the tool eventually wil be useless.

IMHO also the plastic bevelr is more prone to flexing and inaccuracy.

You can overbevel your edge with either of these. It only takes ,maybe 3 or 4 passes tops to set your bevel.

Also understand with any of the tools like htese that have a glide that runs down the middle of the base your bevel angle is only as accurate as your base is flat.

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post #20 of 32
I'm really having trouble understanding how the Beast can be as accurate as the machined SVST beveler. The Beast appears to be injection molded plastic whereas the SVST can be assembled and then machined flat. The Beast rides on a piece of bent sheetmetal whose flatness is unknown. Since it appears to be molded, it would be difficult to consistently maintain control of the plastic legs that run perpendicular to the ski as well as the portion that rides along the edge. Perhaps there is some post machining processing, but I have never actually seen a Beast in person so I don't know...
If someone wants to send me a sample, I can have our machine shop compare it to the 1deg and .5deg SVST tools that I have.
I realize that the Beast is regarded as superior to the adjustable tools, but the comparison would be interesting...
post #21 of 32
It's not as accurate.

And sorry the above post is such a mess! it wasn't supposed to paste like that!
post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by quickk9 View Post
If someone wants to send me a sample, I can have our machine shop compare it to the 1deg and .5deg SVST tools that I have.
I realize that the Beast is regarded as superior to the adjustable tools, but the comparison would be interesting...
I'll send you a 1° Beast tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting exercise.
(Donating adjustable tools will require some contributions.) Maybe we should start a betting pool?
:

I don't think characterizing The Beast as 'superior' to the adjustable tools is necessarily correct. At the end of the day, and ignoring the minutia, how the ski performs or feels for a given individual is the real test and relative to their sensitivity.....even though you can possibly find measurable inaccuracies.
post #23 of 32
[quote=Alpinord;809547]I'll send you a 1° Beast tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting exercise.
(Donating adjustable tools will require some contributions.) Maybe we should start a betting pool?
:

I guess that the comparison has begun! Thanks, Alpinord. Once I receive the Beast that you are so kindly loaning me for comparison, I will drop it and the SVST base guides that I bought from you off at the shop that I deal with. They are usually pretty good at ignoring their hourly rate when it comes to such issues of importance and the seeking of true knowledge!
post #24 of 32
Alpinord-
I was out of town last week and found the Beast when I returned home.
I'll get it to the shop this week and see how it compares to the SVST metal base guide that I purchased from you.
Thanks again.
post #25 of 32

SVST / BEAST performance comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
I'll send you a 1° Beast tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting exercise.
Okay, I got a chance to stop by the machine shop that I deal with at lunch today. I brought two SVST Final Cut that I purchased from Alpinord (0.5 deg and 1 deg) as well as the Beast (1 deg) that Alpinord sent me. We checked the 1 deg SVST first. The tool was placed on a gage block and a CMM operated by the Lead Inspector was used to measure the angle between the two supports for the file. The measured angle was 1.043 deg. The measurement was repeated with the same result. (The gage block surface was also measured and it was perfectly flat to five decimal places.) The BEAST was then measured. It did not do as well. The measurements were repeated with the same result. The BEAST measured 1.513 deg.
Whereas the entire frame of the SVST is metal and the edge supports are plastic (Delrin?), the BEAST frame is plastic. Still, plastic tolerances can be held pretty tightly these days. The most likely culprit is the sheetmetal braket that rides on the base of the ski. Sheetmetal tolerances are more difficult to control. The sheetmetal has a bend on each end with a hole on each of the bent end pieces which allows it to be attached to the plastic frame. On the sample tested, the screws which attached the bracket to the frame were not fully tightened. However, when I did tighten them, it caused a visible bow in the surface of the sheetmetal that contacts the ski. Apparently, the two bends are too far apart and the manufacturer resolves this by not tightening the screws enough to cause deformation of the sheetmetal. Although, I only had the one angle, I would suspect that models with different angles allow the angle to be changed by changing the sheetmetal bracket and having the mounting holes either higher or lower. The tool could have been made to be more accurate if both of the supports for the file were from the same molded plastic. However, this would require a different mold for each different base angle tool and a much higher tooling cost.
Of course, we are only looking at one sample of each tool. To get a better idea of the tolerances of each tool, more samples would be needed.
However, based on the data and the two different design approaches, it becomes clear why the SVST is more accurate and more expensive. Better control of the sheetmetal on the BEAST could certainly improve the performance, but this is something that might not be feasible at this price point.
post #26 of 32
Thanks for going to the work to check and post the results, great review. I guess I do need to spend some more money on the better tool...
post #27 of 32
Quick9, I'm sorry.....I just realized I sent you a 1.5° Beast, not a 1°. My bad. :















(Maybe I should label the .5's as 1's. )

I should have sent you a T4B Razor to test out of curiosity.



Here's what the difference in lateral movement for the given knee height. Shorter legs will be less and longer legs, more:



Since I'm such a spaz and just found out my left hip is 1" higher than the right (and since the human body is adaptable) this difference is not going to ruin my day. Inconsistency between edges would. Having said that, on Sunday working on getting consistently and smoothly on my edges, at Telluride, I started to wonder if I did go with a .5 how much quicker I could get on an edge.......the plot thickens.

Good on ya Quick9!

Good point that this was just one tool and do NOT take this as gospel and dis The Beast. For many people it is more than adequate as a base beveler wishing to save a few bucks and can live with the 'inaccuracies'. Those wishing or requiring more precision can choose to bump it up a notch or two.

(Thanks Randy.)
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by quickk9 View Post
The BEAST was then measured. It did not do as well. The measurements were repeated with the same result. The BEAST measured 1.513 deg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
Quick9, I'm sorry.....I just realized I sent you a 1.5° Beast, not a 1°. My bad. :
Whew! You had me freakin out there a bit. I have a .5 and .75 degree base of beast and a 1 degree SVST. I also have the beast edge planer and the side of beast. I like them all, but I really like the affordability of the beast products. Before the realization of the beast actually being a 1.5, I was thinking I had to get rid of the base of beasts, but, 1.513 for a 1.5 is plenty good enough for me.

On a related note - I don't often touch my base edges. Only after a base stone grind and restructure. In the past, I've had the feeling that I was over beveling my bases - even though I use the marker method for min removal. Now, if I want .75, I use the .5 with the file and then polish with .75 and diamond stones. Likewise, if I want 1, I file with .75 and then polish with the 1. Files can remove a lot of material very quickly. I need to get me one of them fancy edge bevel measuring devices. Yea, that's what I need!
post #29 of 32
Apparently, my messing with Quick9 did not come across. It was the Red 1° Beast I sent him and he measured.

Pasted from an email response to Quick9 after he asked if I was kidding:
Quote:
I was just messing with ya and apparently that wasn't clear and thought the graphic made it self evident. This is a great exercise and thanks for doing this, it's interesting and fun.

I would like to see what the Razor (and the SkiMan ones, maybe??) shows and hopefully put to rest peoples doubts about it and multi-tools in general. Plus with the Razor you can try the different angles. For most skiers fractions of degrees truly don't make a difference and we tend to get used to what we are on. Others prefer, need and require more precision and making the distinction is one of my goals. Lots of people are intimidated by the minutia involved with tuning to the point they will not pick up a tool. KISS and just making the first step somewhere to learn how to take care of gear is important. Get complicated and split hairs later.
As the graphic shows, the differences equates to 3/16" of lateral knee movement. That's nothing to me and most skiers. The question is with the tools you own, is it more important to 'know' exactly to the nth degree what the angle is or whether or not you can turn them? I know what is important to me and getting lost in absolute precision is secondary to taking care of your gear and making them perform as expected and desired, along with other priorities. Consistency is more important to me and I know I can easily adjust to the small difference in angles for my purposes. I can also use any tool I choose. They are all at my fingertips. Others have other needs and nailing and knowing the precise angle is important to them. For precision you have to pay more, spend more time and it requires a bit more skill.

Are you someone who knows the difference, thinks he knows the difference or realizes it's not as critical and saving a few bucks is more important, while at least taking care of the basics? In powder this is virtually irrelevant. IMO, absolute accuracy becomes more critical the harder the snow and the individual's interest in high performance, carving and racing.
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
As the graphic shows, the differences equates to 3/16" of lateral knee movement. That's nothing to me and most skiers. The question is with the tools you own, is it more important to 'know' exactly to the nth degree what the angle is or whether or not you can turn them?
Basically I agree with you but I do think there's more to it.
Changing the edge does not only affect the initial turn-in but also the lateral resistance of the edge (and the entire ski) on the slope. On a hard icy steep I do believe 1° or even .5° could be an issue. Hence I find an error margin of 50% just too much, no matter how cheap the equipment.

And if you don't mind the difference between 1° and 1.5°, why would you bevel at an angle at all?

Please don't misunderstand, I too often think a price ratio of 3 to 1 or more (expensive "quality" gear vs cheapo's) isn't warranted and not worth it.
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