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Discussion: Gear Swap Guideline Revision  

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
Please notice that we have had a significant change in the posting guidelines Gear Swap: Announcements .

Please also understand this is not a "knee jerk reaction" but something that has been under discussion for some time that "Gear Swap" should be a supporter benefit. This thread's discussion of this topic was also overwhelming in favor of making Gear Swap a Supporter benefit.
post #2 of 56
Good move guys. I absolutely support these moves.

Thanks.
post #3 of 56
I see some pros & cons. Overall, the modest ID thing provided by supporter status seems sensible enough given general house rules. And it certainly adds a level of buyer confidence. OTOH, it also cuts out some very reasonable people who, for whatever reason, are not supporters. Still, possibly a good move.

This, however, is just plain wacky and ill thought out:

Quote:
You may post your own Ebay auction to notify members or a "Buy it Now" auction of general interest. Don't post other auctions because you might be posting an auction that a fellow Bear is planning to snipe/snag (unless it is your auction).
You should just drop that.
post #4 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
You should just drop that.
Agreed.

It seems like there was some talk about allowing supporters to vouch for non supporters in the gear swap. Is this still an option, for those that are, for whatever reason, reputable members, but not supporters?

What about mods introducing non-supporter sellers?
post #5 of 56
I think that if a supporter wants to post an auction for a member that is not a supporter, that's fine. It really doesn't need to be part of the guidelines. The presumption here is that if there is a good enough relationship between a member and supporter, that's good enough for most of us. The whole point is to make this as safe as possible and make it a swap used by this community. The last version of guidelines stopped the drop in posters that sold items, never to be heard from again.

As far as mods introducing non-supporter sellers, I am not personally interested in using my valuable time to get acquainted with someone who "for whatever reason" thinks my time is worth less than just being a supporter. I moderate here on a volunteer basis and already spend way too much time at it. I wouldn't consider that a fair consumption of my time.
post #6 of 56

Totally Agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
As far as mods introducing non-supporter sellers, I am not personally interested in using my valuable time to get acquainted with someone who "for whatever reason" thinks my time is worth less than just being a supporter. I moderate here on a volunteer basis and already spend way too much time at it. I wouldn't consider that a fair consumption of my time.
Abso...frickin'...lutley!!

AND...

i want to extend my gratitude & appreciation to all the mods/patroler's for the hours you put in here...it's no different than an actual job, expect you don't get paid: on top of all the other commitments you already have in your regular non web based existence.

thx for listenin', kidz,

bruce marks
post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
As far as mods introducing non-supporter sellers, I am not personally interested in using my valuable time to get acquainted with someone who "for whatever reason" thinks my time is worth less than just being a supporter. I moderate here on a volunteer basis and already spend way too much time at it. I wouldn't consider that a fair consumption of my time.
Cirque,

I didn't catch this when I first glanced over your response. I didn't mean to imply that your time is worth any less then anyone else's, or even less then the cost of becoming a supporter. I was referring back to members introducing sellers, if that wasn't enough, I though maybe mods could introduce the seller.

Thinking about it more though, this should not happen very often, if at all. It seems like any Epic Personality known well enough across the board for this to happen is probably already a supporter. Except maybe Highway Star .
post #8 of 56
So far, the only people I see posting are supporters. Of course you'll get a resounding YES from them.

Well, this is fine and all, but what about us folks who have had a number of positive transactions on Epic already? I've sold 3 or 4 sets of skis, and about a half dozen other pieces of gear (jackets, bindings, etc.). It seems that you're kinda forgetting about some of us who have been "good citizens". Heck, half the deals I have made have lead to getting to know people, and setting up future trips/crash pads/etc. That'll go away now - or at least severely impair it.

I think your rules are a knee-jerk reaction to one bad apple, and I think you're making a mistake. I think alot of great deals are going to fall by the wayside, along with the "Hey - I'm looking for XXX. Can anyone help?" type threads. It (scams) can and will still happen. A $20 "membership" is not going to be a deterrent for someone with enough motivation. Added to which, you're going to have to "mod the hell" out of the classifieds now to make sure nobody "sneaks" something in there, meaning you'll see a lot of spam bombs - "HEY - THESE SKIS XXX IS SELLING ARE GREAT!! i HAVE A PAIR TOO THAT I WOULD SELL IF YOU DON'T LIKE THOSE FOR ANY REASON" and all that type of nonsense... It will creat animosity, and a real "tattle tail" environment. I'd be pissed if I saw somebody pulling that kind of stuff Iif I wasn't able to, so I'd be the first in line. Anyway...

But it's your board. Part of the reason I come here is to check out the deals on things I would probably otherwise NOT buy. I guess you'll save me some money, but considering the other pieces of gear I had decided to move this weekend, someone else will miss out. So be it.

This whole thing is way to reactionary though. If you think you can "protect yourself", I think you are sadly mistaken.
post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
I've sold 3 or 4 sets of skis, and about a half dozen other pieces of gear. Seems that you're kinda forgetting about some of us who have been "good citizens".
I bought one of those pair.

My $.02

It's my web experience that it's hard for any forum to reach critical mass such that people use it as an option to ebay. It's ever harder if access is restricted. This policy will cause Gear Swap to wither and die. Problem solved. Hope that's not what you wanted. Hope I'm wrong.

Steve
post #10 of 56
I think it is an over-reaction. I also think that it makes the site loose some of its value to me.
post #11 of 56
Darn, should have posted earlier...I had some family leftover stuff to sell but now I can't do that here...
post #12 of 56

Dual thread posting

While dreaming up the half-baked store idea (after just being in the mode of adding new products), I was definitely thinking more in terms of EpicSki 'facilitating or brokering' the transaction with checks and balances for members and supporters as another form of revenue over and above the $20 fee. By setting up a means for posting descriptions & images (and maybe q&a's/referrals & ratings) in a store with a cart and some means of transferring funds after goods are delivered.

The current decision definitely excludes and affects the Members who have been here for years and are not the 'bad apples'.

(As and aside, the Apparent theft at EpicSki Swapseems to be a concurrent discussion and may want to merge with this one.)
post #13 of 56
As a frequent buyer and seller on gear swap, I guess this doesn't bother me either way -- the pros and cons sort of cancel out. I think it will help us avoid theft issues, though I am sure somebody could still sneak in a ripoff. If I absolutely want to sell something here, $20 won't kill me and might finally give me incentive to join. However, I think the new policy will be a problem for "wanted" posts, informational posts referring to hot deals, free to a good home posts, etc... and may hamper the true nature of a "swap" quite a bit. Time will tell.
post #14 of 56
I believe $20 is more than good value over time for access to valuable info (how many ski mags can $20 buy today), contacts made, items bought and sold, and a sense of community among other pluses...

Good idea!
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I think it will help us avoid theft issues, though I am sure somebody could still sneak in a ripoff.
But have there been THAT many?? Is it really a BIG problem here at Epic?? One is too many, but still... Caveat emptor, ya know? If I was a thief and motivated enough, $20 on the chance of making hundreds is cetainly worthwhile. Just sayin'... It's pretty easy to vansh on the internet if you're in ANY way vague about your identity.

Again, I find this whole thing to be an overreaction.
post #16 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfp158 View Post
I believe $20 is more than good value over time for access to valuable info (how many ski mags can $20 buy today), contacts made, items bought and sold, and a sense of community among other pluses...

Good idea!
How many mags? About three these days... :

I don't get a sense of community if I have to BUY my way in. Then it becomes a club. I don't do clubs.

Again, I don't really have a horse in this race... I don't need to post my gear here - I'd probably make more if I sold it on eBay, but this site has treated me well, and I return the favor with GREAT deals on gear.

Okay, I've said my peace here. Done now. Do what you gotta do.
post #17 of 56
As an Epicski supporter, I always encourage other members to become supporters. Why, cause it's the right thing to do. Why, cause this site provides a wealth of information that is priceless in value. I wholeheartedly support this gear swap policy decision.
post #18 of 56
Thread Starter 
Again. this is not a knee jerk reaction but more so the nail in the coffin. There is no way to eliminate EVERY crook. As I mentioned in another thread, if they spent as much effort in being honest, they would be ahead of the game.

In overseeing "Gear Swap", You might be surprised that I spend at least an hour a day just weeding through "new posts" from people here that are just signing up to move gear, let alone spammers.

Quite simply put, Epic needs to be a win/win to stay afloat. We need money to survive, you need a place to play and talk about skiing. The gear forum also needs to be a win/win, You want a place to sell gear to "quality buyer", we want you to be a supporter for that access. Personally, I don't think its too much to ask. "Gear Swap" is a vehicle for you to move your gear....any vehicle needs fuel to run.

I take this section very personally, hell it is "Phil's Garage". This situation hurts and this is one major step we are taking to minimize this risk. Can someone sign up, pay and then scam? Absolutely. But now they are exposing their identity to us. We have either paypal or CC info, and they have to wait 30 days before they can post an item "For Sale". By doing what her have done and making Gear Swap a Supporter benefit, I think we have eliminated 90+% of the scammers. *By having to wait another 30 days before you can sell, another 90+% are eliminated. By doing this, we are making it very inconvenient to scam.

*This is for NEW members who sign up. If someone has been active here for a while and choose to become a supporter, this 30 day rule is waived.
post #19 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkevenson View Post
As an Epicski supporter, I always encourage other members to become supporters. Why, cause it's the right thing to do. Why, cause this site provides a wealth of information that is priceless in value. I wholeheartedly support this gear swap policy decision.
You're one of the people that got a killer deal from me...
post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
You're one of the people that got a killer deal from me...
I believe that I thanked you for a flawless deal and posted such here. I thank you again. This doesn't change my opinion that all members should be supporters. The gear swap forum issues aside.

Mark
post #21 of 56
I think the supporters only clause will deter most of the trolling. Most of the frauds bounce around the net looking for sites to hit and will not want to bother to put up some money in hopes of finding some business on each site.
post #22 of 56
using your logic - we should shut down craigslist, the teton gear swap, ...

It pisses me off that someone got burned just trying to buy gear but I think that this is an overreaction that will cost all of the people who use this board as there will be less sales - less good deals - and probably less buyers (from all the people this alienates.)

asland
post #23 of 56
I'm against the supporters only sale access to Gear swap, as I'm just plain cheap. I've been registered under this username since 2002 as I forgot my username from before that. I've accumulated 120ish post counts but bought and sold a dozen pair of skis here (http://forums.epicski.com/search.php?searchid=1738213). For the most part I read the forums and the questions etc....have been answered by phil with his 12K post count. No need for me to throw in my $0.02 to pad my post count as the supporters seem to do an excellent questions answering the newby questions and stirring the pot for those indepth discussions

Please don't ban me from the Gear Swap for being a cheap bugger
post #24 of 56
I was going to give Epic $20 anyway, but IMO requiring supporter level to sell will reduce sales offers and having potentially "safer deals" won't counter-act the harm to Gear Swap caused by limiting the ability to sell. If it matters, then my vote is: don't limit FS posts to supporters.
post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkevenson View Post
I believe that I thanked you for a flawless deal and posted such here. I thank you again. This doesn't change my opinion that all members should be supporters. The gear swap forum issues aside.

Mark
Yep - you did. Wasn't dogging you, and even though you "didn't need it", if I'm going to have to pay $20 to post it, you'd have never known it was there.

Currently - 16,153 members @ $20 = $323,060 each year. Forgive my ignorance, but that's a LOT of $$$ for running a BB... :

I think I'll open my own BB if I can make that kind of cash.
post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesmith7 View Post
I bought one of those pair.

My $.02

It's my web experience that it's hard for any forum to reach critical mass such that people use it as an option to ebay. It's ever harder if access is restricted. This policy will cause Gear Swap to wither and die. Problem solved. Hope that's not what you wanted. Hope I'm wrong.

Steve
I agree that this is a possibility. I think the MODs on this site are responsive and intelligent enough to understand this and to adjust the rules if this sort of thing happens.
post #27 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
Yep - you did. Wasn't dogging you, and even though you "didn't need it", if I'm going to have to pay $20 to post it, you'd have never known it was there.

Currently - 16,153 members @ $20 = $323,060 each year. Forgive my ignorance, but that's a LOT of $$$ for running a BB... :

I think I'll open my own BB if I can make that kind of cash.
Axebiker, I agree, if you hadn't used the gear swap forum I wouldn't have taken you up on your offer to sell that jacket at a GREAT price. As far as the membership #s, I think we can safely say that most of those members are not active. If a member is active and recieves benefit from Epicski then I encourage them to become supporters. The $s you site do seem impressive, tho I doubt that the supporters fees will ever generate enough income for Epic to fully run this show, not to mention start financially compensating the hard work provided by all involved making this thing run as well as it does. Hope that you stick around and continue to enjoy the site and if you so desire to sell in the gear swap forum, become a supporter. Epic ski deserves all the support it can get!
post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
Yep - you did. Wasn't dogging you, and even though you "didn't need it", if I'm going to have to pay $20 to post it, you'd have never known it was there.

Currently - 16,153 members @ $20 = $323,060 each year. Forgive my ignorance, but that's a LOT of $$$ for running a BB... :

I think I'll open my own BB if I can make that kind of cash.
I think a more realistic view would be, how many members have logged in since September 1. That number is about 2500. The actual number of supporters are a small fraction of that. So, if you want to do the real math, the rest probably comes out of some owner's pockets. In reality, there are supporters here who give FAR more than the minimum as a token of what they see as the value of this place. And thanks to those folks this place keeps the lights on.
post #29 of 56
Here's my two cents. If someone really wants to rip another person off, do you really think a $20 "donation" is going to stop them? They could be selling a $750 pair of skis that they plan to take the money and run, and a $20 fee isn't going to do anything to prevent that.

I think the only thing this new policy does is alienate all of your long-time members who have hooked up numerous people through this board (including me) with deals they can't find elsewhere.
post #30 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Dunn View Post
Here's my two cents. If someone really wants to rip another person off, do you really think a $20 "donation" is going to stop them? They could be selling a $750 pair of skis that they plan to take the money and run, and a $20 fee isn't going to do anything to prevent that.

I think the only thing this new policy does is alienate all of your long-time members who have hooked up numerous people through this board (including me) with deals they can't find elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Again. this is not a knee jerk reaction but more so the nail in the coffin. There is no way to eliminate EVERY crook. As I mentioned in another thread, if they spent as much effort in being honest, they would be ahead of the game.

In overseeing "Gear Swap", You might be surprised that I spend at least an hour a day just weeding through "new posts" from people here that are just signing up to move gear, let alone spammers.

Quite simply put, Epic needs to be a win/win to stay afloat. We need money to survive, you need a place to play and talk about skiing. The gear forum also needs to be a win/win, You want a place to sell gear to "quality buyer", we want you to be a supporter for that access. Personally, I don't think its too much to ask. "Gear Swap" is a vehicle for you to move your gear....any vehicle needs fuel to run.

I take this section very personally, hell it is "Phil's Garage". This situation hurts and this is one major step we are taking to minimize this risk. Can someone sign up, pay and then scam? Absolutely. But now they are exposing their identity to us. We have either paypal or CC info, and they have to wait 30 days before they can post an item "For Sale". By doing what her have done and making Gear Swap a Supporter benefit, I think we have eliminated 90+% of the scammers. *By having to wait another 30 days before you can sell, another 90+% are eliminated. By doing this, we are making it very inconvenient to scam.

*This is for NEW members who sign up. If someone has been active here for a while and choose to become a supporter, this 30 day rule is waived.
Your point and my answer are in the bold. Deals can still be had, but there is a better chance that you are dealing with a reputable seller.
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