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Pierre's slomo bump vid discussion

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMYwIxCTKP8

I would like to open this up for discussion as I figured out slow motion on vidio uploads. I can give everyone my intentions when making this video and my take on what I am doing. I have loaded the full URL so you can blow it up to full screen. The original vid is much better quality than the youtube version.

My intentions were to make a video that clearly shows the slows line fast approach plus shows the versatility and choices available. Versatility is the reason for the multiple line changes. My intention was to mix and match. Once I passed the camera my intentions changed to a tactic of much more zipperline than what I was skiing above the camera. I think this video does capture my intentions so I can use it in teaching.

Threre is some evidence of functional missalignment but that does not detract from what I was trying to show. The misalignment shows up as head tipping, shoulder rotation and A framing on right turns and a bit of banking on left turns. The little burbles at the feet are caused by the garbage under the skis or trying to miss rocks.

I am not skiing here with some secret different technique than I use on the groomers. My intention are to ski the slow line fast with very minimal braking action from the skis. I am absolutely trying to minimize braking as a means of speed control here.

There is some discussion of World Cup techniques in another thread. I am not doing things different than most WC skiers however I am conciously making one exception. In WC mogul skiing there is a judging rule about keeping the knees together and in unison. This precludes anything but a very narrow stance at the feet.

As recreational skiers we are not bound by rules and we don't ski with this rule on the groomers for obvious reasons. Very narrow stance limits the ability to use some fulcum effect between the feet and limits our ability to have independent leg action in flexion and extention. Keeping the knees in unison limits our movements so that when taken to bumps you need to carry a certain speed to be able to make things work right. Although reasonably slow this speed is still above the comfort level and fexibility requirements of many skiers.

I would like you to notice that I am skiing with my skis about shoulder width apart. Also notice that my legs flex and extend at different rates instead of in unison. One foot can be up on the bump while the other is in the trough. This gives a stable platform without the up and down in unison flexion and extention. The difference is like jumping on a trampoline or stomping one foot at a time on the same trampoline. Cars went to independent suspension and so did I.

If you take this small change of breaking a WC judging rule elegantly meant to preserve the look of a sport then much slower speeds are possible.

With the change in stance width and the change in flexion and extension patterns, we can make a tactical change in line selection and run a much rounder line that is shifted further up the slopes. I would like you to notice that many of my pole touches are on the front face of the bump right where the normal edge set would go. This tactical line change and pole patten increases the size of the turn around any given bump.

With the change in stance and tactics, speed can be almost solely controlled by turn shape, timing and intensity the same way we control speed on the groomers. This is the reason I can ski and love bumps after a freezing rain. With ice, the friction goes to zero and so does the work yet the senses go into overdrive because of the risks involved with a mistake.

Kneale asked a question as to what I do in the steep undercut bumps typical in the Midwest. The tactics I use work great because I am touching the pole on the spot everyone else has undercut. I evolved this tactic to handle exactly the kind of bumps we frequently encounter in the East and Midwest. I needed a method that virtually guaranteed I would never jar my back or bang my knees. There are no big secret unknown skiing that I use. It's more of a mind change than anything else.

What do others see or think?
post #2 of 33
Are you saying a skier can not ski the line slow with their feet together?
post #3 of 33
Can't load the clip, taking forever.
post #4 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemammoth View Post
Are you saying a skier can not ski the line slow with their feet together?
No!
post #5 of 33
To me, it looks like you came in with a lot of speed and really hit the brakes on the first 3 turns of the video.
post #6 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
To me, it looks like you came in with a lot of speed and really hit the brakes on the first 3 turns of the video.
Yeah, I switched to zipperline for the last few. If I am feeling Okay I like to rip the zipperline but, the body often says no.
post #7 of 33
What Pierre is doing in the vid is something that I say to other instructors that tell me they want to learn to bump ski. I tell them that they need to learn to ski in the bumps.

Any LII that are aspiring to take LIII skiing exam, this vid would be a excellent demo of how to ski in the bumps (less the items Pierre pointed out about his technique). It shows a nice flow of motion from turn to turn, rythm, and A&E.

I'll say it again, nice skiing Pierre!

RW
post #8 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
To me, it looks like you came in with a lot of speed and really hit the brakes on the first 3 turns of the video.
I misread this the first time. The first three turns are from one turn after I started. I started in a section where the moguls were big. The slope here is between 30 and 32 degrees so there can be quite a drop between bumps.
post #9 of 33
Pierre,

It looks to me that your typical turn goes around the mogul starting on the uphill side traveling around the mogul. You seem to me to be around the middle of the mogul from a vertical perspective and come around it at an entry point to start the new turn on the next bump. So instead of going up and over, you are following the circumference of a horizontal plane of the mogul, thus reducing the amount of absorbing and extension required.

Not being an instructor, I realize I have not phrased my analysis properly. Further, I may have it all wrong.

Could you elaborate on your chosen path?

Thanks
post #10 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
As recreational skiers we are not bound by rules and we don't ski with this rule on the groomers for obvious reasons. Very narrow stance limits the ability to use some fulcum effect between the feet and limits our ability to have independent leg action in flexion and extention. Keeping the knees in unison limits our movements so that when taken to bumps you need to carry a certain speed to be able to make things work right. Although reasonably slow this speed is still above the comfort level and fexibility requirements of many skiers.

I would like you to notice that I am skiing with my skis about shoulder width apart. Also notice that my legs flex and extend at different rates instead of in unison. One foot can be up on the bump while the other is in the trough. This gives a stable platform without the up and down in unison flexion and extention. The difference is like jumping on a trampoline or stomping one foot at a time on the same trampoline. Cars went to independent suspension and so did I.

If you take this small change of breaking a WC judging rule elegantly meant to preserve the look of a sport then much slower speeds are possible.

With the change in stance width and the change in flexion and extension patterns, we can make a tactical change in line selection and run a much rounder line that is shifted further up the slopes. I would like you to notice that many of my pole touches are on the front face of the bump right where the normal edge set would go. This tactical line change and pole patten increases the size of the turn around any given bump.

What do others see or think?

I think recreational skiers come with a lot of mental baggage that doesn't have much to do with WC mogul circuit.

Much more to do with fear of vertical ski separation leading to horizontal ski separation, leading to crossing of tips or wishboning or hooking. Also weird things happening to counter as the inside ski goes up and boot isn't flexed.

The threshold of allowable vertical separation and allowable horizontal separation is vague and probably individual. Hence baggage perception: much safer for rec skier to slam them together.

I saw the banking up top but not much A framing until the second half. You say functional missalignment but that is glass half empty. There are rec skiers out there with one sip's worth.
post #11 of 33
Thread Starter 
Fischerman your observation is pretty good but I would like to comment that no two bumps are the same and so the path varies. I try to select the path with the least up and down. I am also intentionally switching lines here to show variation.

Please keep in mind that the purpose of this vid was to show one approach to very low impact bump skiing. If I am feeling strong and flexible, you can just about count on it that I will be closer to the fall line, feet closer together and skiing much faster.

joemammoth I belive was taking issue with what I said about speed and the feet together approach so I think I need to clarify that point a little bit.

I can as Joe would suggest ski these bumps fine with my feet much closer together and go as slow as you see in the video. What I meant to convey was feet apart is easier to learn for skiers who are timid or have limited skill or flexibility. Here in the Midwest we don't get a high caliber of skier and the ones who have the money for lessons, tend to be older and not very fit. I find this method is easier for them to learn and appears to be a stepping stone for the more zipperline approach. If you speed up my skiing the, feet naturally get closer together and the skis more down the fall line. Once a comfort level is achieved backing the speed down with knees together becomes easy.

One thing that may not be as evident in the video is that I am outside ski dominant with a fairly light inside ski. The inside ski is riding up on the bump that I am skiing around and that raises the inside knee similar to the feeling of carving. This form of A & E is already in most skiers quiver.

If a skier can carve and side slip within reason, I can teach them this method. For some reason, knees together is not as easy from the perspective on the "leap of faith feeling" experience by most skiers in bumps. Most skiers just can't let go enough to do the knees together method unless they already ski bumps to a reasonable degree.

What I am showing here is not something I am zealous about and I often free ski in a more ripping manner. What I am showing is a method that almost guarantees low impact with both free skiing and learning. I have a tool bag of stepping stones to get skiers to a comfortable level and with this approach I have found better success with skiers who are tenative. The video was shot with the intention of using this for training purposes.

It's all about teaching effectively in my case.
post #12 of 33
Quote:
What I meant to convey was feet apart is easier to learn for skiers who are timid or have limited skill or flexibility
Quote:
I am outside ski dominant with a fairly light inside ski. The inside ski is riding up on the bump that I am skiing around and that raises the inside knee similar to the feeling of carving.
Too often the proponents of skiing with the feet apart forget the other part of allowing the most weight on the outside foot and allowing the inside leg to flex deeply.

And, your feet actually are quite close together, just not locked together in the old style or the competition style. The skier with about equal weight on both feet and feet so far apart that their balance is between the skis is in real trouble in bumps.
post #13 of 33
I am at work and can't look at you tube so I am writing this so it will be easier to find in the forum after my shift.
post #14 of 33
Nice skiing Pierre. It clearly shows your intent to make your way down a mogul field with as much ease as you can get away with.

IMHO your skiing could easily be done with more flexing and extending and with a closer or wider stance as well but it kind of represents a neutral way of skiing in the bumps and once you master it you can eather venture off closer to the fall line for proper WC zipper line style or stopp for a coffee brake.

Im not 100% up to date with the FIS rules for stance width but I have a friend that sits as WC judge and he said that there is no rule that the knees has to be close together. The rule is as far as I can remember, that you need to have your legs spaced evenly apart during the whole run except for the jumps. Since its impossible to keep them 5inch apart the whole run they keep them tight together. But that is totally out of context here since WC skiing is different with a different intent.
post #15 of 33

tips off the snow?

Hi Pierre,
very good skiing, very good video.

I recently attended this bump clinic at copper:
http://www.coppercolorado.com/lesson...mp_busters.htm

they emphasized shoving the tips down the back sides of the moguls, as opposed to absorbing with the knees, which moves the mass up/back.

they were very big on soft boots and ankle flex, ie "swallowing" the bumps
with the ankles.

for bumps, i suspect your poles might be a bit long as some pole plants
moved your arms back.

brad
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
they emphasized shoving the tips down the back sides of the moguls, as opposed to absorbing with the knees, which moves the mass up/back.
Did they explain how absorbing the bumps move the mass up? I'm having a tough time figuring that one out.
post #17 of 33

absorbing / mass up

when absorbing the frontside of a mogul:
the tips tend to be up and off the snow
the knees are pushed up and back toward the chest
the hips are most likely behind the binding

the goal was to stay taller, use the ankle more than the knees
brad
post #18 of 33
What is the front side of the bump? Is it the downhill side or the hillside? I try to ski bumps exlusively by crashing into the hillside side of the bumps. I look for big piles of snow everybody else skidded there for me to crash into and dampen my impact as I flex. I look down a mogul run and try to find a man made path down inbetween the bumps and then I ski it totally opposite. If you see me ski in moguls you will see snow exploding and spraying everywhere.
post #19 of 33
You'd have fun "exploding" the kind of iced-in VW Bug-sized bumps that develop where I ski.
post #20 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
You'd have fun "exploding" the kind of iced-in VW Bug-sized bumps that develop where I ski.
Yeah, those kind of bumps cannot be skied the way I described. That would be my intestans exploding over the bump while my skis got left behind parked nicely side by side on the other side. Icy bumps in general are both difficult to ski and dangerous. Worst are fluffy powder on flat pich slope with irregular icy bumps and worn out WC zipper line ruts down hair raicing steep icy mogul fields. In the alps the sun usually melts the bumps in the afternoon and in the morning all slush and piles of snow is frosen solid. Here in scandinavia most mogul fields are rock hard from the cold temperatures of up to -20 to -40 deg C and no daylight.
post #21 of 33
Pierre. I commend you for you openness here. Way to go.

A couple things

1 - Slow line fast - I think your speed control in this video comes primarily from "hitting the uphill faces of bumps" and "edge sets" (when you aren't doing the former). To me, "slow line fast," means speed control from turn shape.

IMO - For the lions share of this run your skis are not in contact with the snow much in the first half of turns, leaving little choice other than controlling speed in the last half of the turns. To truly show the "slow line fast" you would have to have turn shaping well under way/ski design applied to the snow well before you are "just getting pressure to the ski" in this video.

Not sure if you are looking for suggestions on technique or whatever, but with the skills you show I think you could adjust what you are doing to better show what you are trying to show.

The above is not to say that this video can't be or is not representative of 'lower impact bump skiing' in some ways, but I think it could get better.

2 - To me, a narrow stance does not preclude independent leg action.

Ok, 3 things

3 - pole use. While I understand & agree with your intent with pole use to adjust line/tactics etc., for that to happen I think the skier needs to have pole use linked to their skiing skills as applied by the lower body. One thing I am seeing here is a marked difference in timing betweeen when your hand/pole starts moving forward toward the "touch" zone, and when your legs/feet begin to move toward the "release" zone." If they move together, this will allow the upper & lower bodies to travel into turn entry together, which is what allows choice/options/ski design/turn shape to be excercised.

Grinnn
post #22 of 33
Roto, he only "hits" the uphill side of the bump twice. The rest of the time at least one ski is somewhat engaged before the fall line. There is some unique stuff going on in that video that is easy to miss.
post #23 of 33
Only thing I would like to add is that I would kill to ski some bumps like that right now.

I'm sick of ice and groomed runs.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
I'm sick of ice and groomed runs.
Hey now... there is nothing wrong with those kinds of conditions. Isn't it snowing down there today/tonight? Driving into work today the clouds south of the city looked pretty threatening.
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Hey now... there is nothing wrong with those kinds of conditions. Isn't it snowing down there today/tonight? Driving into work today the clouds south of the city looked pretty threatening.
Got some good snow yesterday. Over a foot here, blown around though.

8 or 9" expected tomorrow. I might blow the day off Wednesday and ski.

Saturday was some very gnarley conditions.
post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
Roto, he only "hits" the uphill side of the bump twice. The rest of the time at least one ski is somewhat engaged before the fall line. There is some unique stuff going on in that video that is easy to miss.
I suppose "hitting" was too strong of a word, "using" the uphill faces as opposed to "using" the turn, or turn shape would have been more accurate.
post #27 of 33
Pierre. Your line choice. A question.

Are you extending into side side of the nearest bump and you finish and go into some flexion as you come over the next bump ? You look to be staying out of the trough bottoms It would be expected to get lots of speed control in your extension and use the terrain to serve your needs.
I have been playing with this and when I can do it properly the turn is very effortless and you gain no speed what so ever. I have a hard time keeping it together and often go back to old patterns I wish to leave behind . What tactics would you like to share ?
I like your use of a more open stance as it makes yours useful in any terrain. The SAME principal of taking a well built stance into all types of terrain with some slight alteration of spacing to take into consideration the texture and depth of the snow . Using the same basic stance , balance and pressure.
post #28 of 33
So i didn't mean to come off as quite so contrary. Since you did state "discussion" in your opener, here is another try by me, without deleting anything, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto View Post
Pierre. I commend you for you openness here. Way to go.

A couple things

1 - Slow line fast - I think your speed control in this video comes primarily from "hitting the uphill faces of bumps" and "edge sets" (when you aren't doing the former). To me, "slow line fast," means speed control from turn shape.

IMO - For the lions share of this run your skis are not in contact with the snow much in the first half of turns, leaving little choice other than controlling speed in the last half of the turns. To truly show the "slow line fast" you would have to have turn shaping well under way/ski design applied to the snow well before you are "just getting pressure to the ski" in this video.
Does "speed control from turn shape" mean the same thing as "Ski the slow line fast" in your book?

Quote:

Not sure if you are looking for suggestions on technique or whatever, but with the skills you show I think you could adjust what you are doing to better show what you are trying to show.

The above is not to say that this video can't be or is not representative of 'lower impact bump skiing' in some ways, but I think it could get better.
this comes from me not being sure is the two above terms = each other. I certainly don't mean to say your skiing in the video is bad, I'm just not sure if it shows what is intended as well as it could.

Quote:
2 - To me, a narrow stance does not preclude independent leg action.
even in terms of flexion extension. Are you really concerned with stance width, or is it possible the issue is with how people achieve that width?

Quote:
Ok, 3 things

3 - pole use. While I understand & agree with your intent with pole use to adjust line/tactics etc., for that to happen I think the skier needs to have pole use linked to their skiing skills as applied by the lower body. One thing I am seeing here is a marked difference in timing betweeen when your hand/pole starts moving forward toward the "touch" zone, and when your legs/feet begin to move toward the "release" zone." If they move together, this will allow the upper & lower bodies to travel into turn entry together, which is what allows choice/options/ski design/turn shape to be excercised.
I'm not sure of the
Quote:
" I am touching the pole on the spot everyone else has undercut."
reference. When I look at turn shape and use that as a reference for the pole use shown I see a fairly typical braking pole plant as far as timing goes (on the average) and some slight jarring of the upper body which you are trying to avoid results occasionally. Is your pole timing different from a braking turn in relation to turns shape & or skills? How?

Quote:
Grinnn
that was cuz I realized how contrary my post may come across but I wasn't going to take the time to change it at the time.

Much respect.
post #29 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto View Post
Does "speed control from turn shape" mean the same thing as "Ski the slow line fast" in your book?
Not totally. To me "Skiing the slow line fast" has more to do with using offensive type movement patterns verses defensive movement patterns. Offensive movement patterns usually results in a rounder turn shape whether the skis are in contact with the snow or not. In this case the speed control is not so much from the skis being in contact with the snow all the time as it is from using offensive movement patterns to turn the skis throughout the turn at the same rate. I am not rushing the top of the turn and therefore it takes longer to complete each turn. Time over distance equals speed.

Quote:
even in terms of flexion extension. Are you really concerned with stance width, or is it possible the issue is with how people achieve that width?
No I am not really concerned with stance width. I was only saying that feet glued together is not necessary. Since this video I have had much alignment work and new boots. My stance is more even and a bit narrower now.

Quote:
I'm not sure of the reference. When I look at turn shape and use that as a reference for the pole use shown I see a fairly typical braking pole plant as far as timing goes (on the average) and some slight jarring of the upper body which you are trying to avoid results occasionally. Is your pole timing different from a braking turn in relation to turns shape & or skills? How?
One thing to keep in mind here on jarring and pole use. These bumps are not the nice soft bumps they appear to be and I am all but totally spent energy wise in this video. These bumps are rock hard in the shadows with a far amount of rocks showing in between. At times you will see my feet do funny things to miss rocks or they get thrown by frozen crud. At times I am using a blocking pole plant here because there are no muscles left to really absorb. I don't apologize for surviving

Quote:
that was cuz I realized how contrary my post may come across but I wasn't going to take the time to change it at the time.

Much respect.
Your post was ok. I hesitated to post the video because of all the things I am doing in it to survive physically. On day four at more than 11,000 ft, no amount of "try this" would have made a ounce of difference. During this video, a beer and oxygen would have gotten a far better response than all the words of instruction written in the books.
post #30 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Pierre. Your line choice. A question.

Are you extending into side side of the nearest bump and you finish and go into some flexion as you come over the next bump ? You look to be staying out of the trough bottoms It would be expected to get lots of speed control in your extension and use the terrain to serve your needs.
Yes, more or less I am slightly out of the trough and up on the nearest bump.
Quote:
I have been playing with this and when I can do it properly the turn is very effortless and you gain no speed what so ever. I have a hard time keeping it together and often go back to old patterns I wish to leave behind . What tactics would you like to share ?
Where the pole touch occurs has much to do with keeping it together. If the pole touch is not consistent or in the right place you will have a hard time skiing this line.
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