Wearing A Beacon in-bounds at the Ski Area? - Page 4

Older version was published by the American Avalanche Association last season (in its "The Avalanche Review" publication), and more recent version is here:
http://www.avalanche-center.org/Educ...2007-09-01.pdf
I can also email the very latest -- you can contact me using the username "jshefftz" using the domain from my friend's "www.nerandorace.com" website. (Or just PM if that doesn't work.)

To address the original question, yes, I will carry avy rescue gear for in-bounds skiing on days when isolated pockets of instability are likely to exist. (I'm talking about trips out west though, not my native northeast.) In some situations (like that Mammoth slide referenced earlier in the thread), patrol response can be very rapid, but just think about the logistics that would typically be involved...
For example, last year I was teaching at the NSP-East's Level 2 avy course, held at Whiteface, the only ski area in the eastern U.S. with lift-accessed in-bounds avy terrain. (Well, it's hardly ever open in the winter, but still.) For the final day of the course, we instructors set up a simulated avalanche site, complete with incoming ski tracks, simulated crown face, debris field, and two buried full-size dummies. (Yes, this took a looooong time to set up!) The students' collective response was pretty good, but still, the elapsed time from calling in the incident to when the first responders arrived was most likely too long to save a fully buried victim.

Please let this die.

On better topics, these guys will help you at Fernie.

Scenario:

What if it dumps 16" and you & your friend are caught in an inbound avalanche at Fernie.

Who would get saved first? You -who have dog treats in your pocket- OR your friend who cooked bacon and eggs for breakfast?

Remember, only one can live. Unfortunately, neither has a beacon.

A live recovery of a fully buried victim is close to impossible without a shovel. (And a beacon will dramatically speed up the pinpoint phase, even with a more accurate triple-antenna beacon.)

I can't track down the citation(s) for this right now, but I am pretty sure that:
19?? -- concept of avalanche cords introduced, yet even after a few decades, a live recovery of a fully buried victim never occured via use of avalanche cords
1968 -- Skadi invented
1970s -- Skadi first sold
a year or so later -- live recovery of a fully buried victim via a Skadi search
another year or so later -- partner located a fully buried victim via a Skadi search, yet victim died since partner didn't have a shovel and eventually gave up after futile "digging" with skis, poles, hands, etc.

Given all that, I think that using beacons but not carrying the full triad can be defensible for in-bounds skiing on that idea that:
-- your companions can get started on the primary, secondary, and pinpoint search phase, which is when the patrol might arrive in time for probing and digging
-- if you're even closer to the patrol, then setting aside companion rescue, organized rescue by the patrol with beacons is going to be much more effective than relying on spot probing by the patrol

I think the bottomline is, if you already own a beacon and are training in its use, wearing it has almost no drawbacks in terms of cost, inconvenience, weight, awkwardness, or pretty much anything.

No matter what you carry in your backpack, the beacon works exactly the same. It transmits and receives signals. So, they transmit and receive very effectively.

'major commitment' (<3lbs of shovel and probe) vs. life/death


thank god the mega-unstable wind slab is is only a large sluff.

You're gettin 'mega-hypothetical' here

If you feel the danger is big enough to warrant a beacon, you should prepare yourself. Otherwise, the beacon makes it easier for patrol to find your body.

I'm not one of the 'you should always wear a beacon inbounds' sorts. I also don't think it's a bad idea if you want to.

But if you think you need a beacon, then you need to be prepared to be an active part of the rescue. What if you and your friend were wearing beacons, and the (almost weightless carbon fiber) probe and shovel were just too dang much to carry, and your buddy got buried. Patrol didn't quite make it in time. I wonder, 'if I would have practiced my search skills, and had a shovel, if my friend would be alive?'

If conditions warrant a beacon, they warrant full rescue triage training.

As far as digging someone out, you laid down some very unlikely hypotheticals. Yes, if the 'mega unstable wind slab (fill)' only sloughs the top 6 inches for 500 vert feet, you might be lucky and be able to help the guy.

But, lot's of things start happening when snow starts moving. One thing is friction and heat. The nice powder you were skiing melts a little because of friction, it bonds to each other and refreezes into big, heavy, surprisingly hard to move with a shovel (let alone skis and hands) blocks of ice.

I only wear my beacon while skiing in-bounds if I happen to be on my way into the backcountry. I did however take a good ride and get partially buried in-bounds before... while I was in uniform... coaching the Freeride Team!! The patrollers were stunned. It's a pretty big deal if it ever happens in-bounds during business hours! I knew enough to shut my mouth about it. In fact, this is the first time that I spoken about it ever.

Read "The Avalanche Enigma", Colin Fraser, 1966 It is one of the few English language books on early Swiss avalanche work, loaded with case studies and early snow science, much of it still relevant today. Fraser states that he knows of only two cases of a completely buried avalanche cord, a writes that they have "save many lives, and offer a near 100% chance of a fast recovery." Several of the recoveries are described in detail.

I still use one when I'm the first to drop in on some faces. If you see a cord, pick it up, and see an arrow indicating 10 feet, are you going to pull on the cord and follow it or pull out the transceiver?

I still own an avalanche cord. No kidding.

Yesterday we picked up 12" in the six hours after patrol opened the mountain, with winds increasing through the day to 60mph. That was on top of 30" so far in this storm. Last run of the day an avi came down in front of me, about 100 feet away, as I was traversing under a wall. No trigger. Patrol was in the process of shutting the moutain, and it will remained closed the next few days.

It was deep enough to bury someone. Just something to think about

Okay, I still own one, but I don't actually know anyone who still uses one...I'm leary that it would work anywhere near as well as a beacon.

Mine is a 50' nylon cord, red, with a plastic band every 5 feet with an arrow and how far to the end. You just tie it on and it trails behind you. It floats on top and there should be a piece visable after the slide. You pull on it until it is vertical and probe there.

In the two cases where it was covered in the Fraser book, one was a two stage slide where the second stage buried the cord, the other was the Davos patrol director, who found his cord was buried, but he was not. He swore the witnesses to secrecy because he was afraid the incident would discourage chord use.

I would not use one instead of a transciever, but in addition, why not?

I've used mine for the first run down a face we like to hit early in the morning. If nothing else, it is certainly easier than a transciever, and you don't know how some partners do in a real situation.

I'm not sure I buy that. In anything but the softest slough, that'd be like pulling a string through a lock of ice. Any real amount of setup and I can't imagine that this would even be possible...

I thought someone would say that. It is pretty strong thin nylon, not a string.

Sure in spring concrete it would not pull, but the skier is already pulverized.

In most of the winter slides I've been to quickly, it would pull nicely for the initial few minutes. I have scuff searched up skis, hats all kinds of things right after a slide. I will say hats seem good at staying near the top, so I would assume a cord would also. Anyway, if you saw a cord, would you try it or just ignore it? I'm not talking about replacing a transciever, just saying that the low tech stuff has actually worked, and worked well in the past.

Help me understand...

Do you roll it up OR ski with 50' of cord behind you? Not an in-bounds solution really - roll and unroll it for chairlift rides?

Beacons are very easy compared to dragging 50' of cord behind you while skiing.

Oh yeah, they're totally impractical for extended use.

I'm just saying that it is a mountain legend that they never worked.

When the dawn patrol skins up Tumalo Mountain, and I'm sent first off the back, I run it out for the first run, then put it away.

Looking through the Fraser 1966 book a bit more....it really is fun....tales of whole villages buried, people rescued after a month in a buried barn, photos of huge alpine slides and twisted mangled bodies still attached to the skis by bear trap bindings...and many accounts of cords working. They also speculate on magnetic and radio methods for the future

I take it you try to avoid most trees with an avy cord.

What is it attached to? Sounds like you might snag it on something...and unclear what would win...

I would love to see someone ski into a high traffic zone with an avy cord! The Mountain Run at Squaw, Gros Vente at Jackson, etc. Twin tips (to spray snow) and an avy cord (for whip action).

If Warren Miller Jr. puts that scene in, I will go watch his next movie.

... what we have been talking about:

http://www.telemarktips.com/FSneverSame.html

Another news item that may prove informative in this context. Very sad. At the time I am posting this link, the picture is hardly complete...

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=106470

Sad to hear that.

Already 5 fatalities in Washington backcountry. Full avi gear has been required on Pan dome (inbounds) several days over the past 2 weeks.

As usual, a silly discussion with a simple answer:

Why would you buy a beacon just to wear at the resort? There are better uses for your money.

If you already paid for and own a beacon why on earth would you NOT wear it all the time?

(I own a beacon and always wear it)

Noteworthy inbounds slide at Big Sky. No matter how careful patrol is, there are some inbounds places and conditions where things can let go (unless you want them to blast the mountain down to dirt on a daily basis).

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=106747

http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/G...&nav=menu227_5

I wouldn't get overly paranoid, but this is just more data to digest when contemplating beacons, packs, Recco, etc. for certain inbounds situations...

IMHO if your skiing avalanche terrain weather it be in or out of bounds you should be wearing a beacon.
In all the years I've skied Fernie I've seen several inbounds slides. I've been taken for a ride a few times too but never been completely buried.

About not having a shovel or probe, a lot of days I do pack them, especially if I'm thinking about ducking out of bounds for a run or 2. If you look around this resort there are quite a few people who do ski with all the avi gear, so even if your party doesn't have a shovel, there's probably a good chance someone nearby does.

The other thing somebody mentioned about only speeding body recovery. If you got done in by an avi, wouldn't you want the patrollers etc to be able to perform a speedy body recovery? I know I would so others aren't exposed any longer than they need to be and also so your family and friends aren't wondering for days if you might still be alive.

I wear it always.

Depends where you ski. Fernie.......I wouldn't call it silly. Got some good sloughs going today several times.

Seems a big season for inbounds slides.

TGR discussions of an inbounds slide at Big White today

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=107816

and the Squaw one a day or two ago

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=107749

To reiterate - statistically, I don't think this is cause for any kind of giant panic. But at the same time, the evidence is pretty compelling that just being "inbounds" is not some magic assurance of safety.

I worm mine today and never went out of bounds, although I was off piste and in the trees. Beautiful day with thigh to hip deep snow. Never needed the beacon, but cost me nothing to carry.

You need to be wormed, after a day like that, you lucky dog!

Horrors! I done spelt somptin rong.

I was overdue for the worming. Last year we had very parasitic snow totals.
I now need to continue the treatment cause my legs are played and I'm clearly out of shape. That Pennsylvania skiing seemed so easy, I forgot I was going to hurt.