EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Using ski tails to launch toward next turn
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Using ski tails to launch toward next turn - Page 2

post #31 of 41
Max,

I dont want to get into between you and Garrett...so I'll be breif and just make this minor little point:

REBOUND has NOTHING to do with LOADED TAILS! Rebound is what you tried to emulate in your garage....the "squirt effect" being discussed here, is totally different.

But I am glad to see you at least starting to read RL now. Lots of good stuff in there eh? I just wish you understood it better.

Anyway...carry on.
post #32 of 41
Garrett, all this ingeniering stuff is making this old engineer's head spin. Why don't you simply say " The dang snow pushes back too as the ski rides forward."
post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
REBOUND has NOTHING to do with LOADED TAILS! Rebound is what you tried to emulate in your garage....the "squirt effect" being discussed here, is totally different.
The original question in the first post of this thread:

Quote:
Another, is the idea of loading the tail of the ski so that it will launch you into the next turn.

Does this launch by the tails really work?
Does it sound like he's asking about the squirt effect (which is caused by the a momentary acceleration of the skis as the CM gets back and has little (if anything) to do with the tail being loaded).
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The premise (that I am not supporting, only pointing out fallacious arguments against) is that "rebound" provided by the restorative force of a bent ski is a significant effect in the transition.
Actually, you are supporting that premise as evidenced by your previous posts. And I haven't said anything about how a skier may or may not use the trivial force available as the ski pops back to its resting state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Fallacy: The ski needs to force a skier up or forward for it's effect on ski technique to be significant. You've implied this is the case with no good reason.
I haven't implied any such thing. I'm answering the OP's question. And I stand by the answer, no way is the ski launching the skier up or forward.
post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Actually, you are supporting that premise as evidenced by your previous posts.
No, I'm sorry you got that impression, but that is not the case.

I'm just saying the certitude on all sides of that argument is false, and a proper answer requires some skills I'm guessing you don't have, since you haven't decided to demonstrate them.

The main point is that talking in less concrete terms about ski technique is fine, but bandying terms from the fizziks about when you pretty clearly don't have the meat to back them up doesn't make you knowledgeable, it makes you a charlatan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Why don't you simply say " The dang snow pushes back too as the ski rides forward."
Believe me, I prefer that kind of simplicity. I was just making a point...
post #36 of 41
Max, what you're missing is a little perspective, and common sense. Nobody said racers, like the one pictured above work on deliberately load the tails of their skis to jump into the air as a technique to lower their times.

Can you load a ski's tail hard enough to get it to launch you when it rebounds? Yes.

Is this a good technique to try on a race course? Of course not, but it is fun to do when out playing on the groomers.

Can you use the same mechanics to have an extra force to move your skis around with? Yes.

Should you be thinking about doing this on a race course? No, not until you've got everything else nailed down; it will likely only detract from your ability to smoothly pressure the snow and end up slowing you down, as well as detracting from your ability to move forward in transition. In fact many people who use their tails to good effect (including me, but I have no video ) are doing it unconsciously.

Should you train to do it? No; your coach will tell you how you should be training.

Should you go play with it, experiment and see what happens? Yes.

I'm not going to quote RL, or HH, or anybody elses book. I'm not speaking about my interpretation of something I've read, but something I've actually done out on the hill.
post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Can you load a ski's tail hard enough to get it to launch you when it rebounds? Yes.
To be clear, are you saying that you can bend the tail of the ski (while on snow) so that as the ski returns to its resting state it will throw 165lbs either up or forward (note - this is minus any other forces of the turn, consider only the potential energy of the bent ski)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Should you go play with it, experiment and see what happens? Yes.
I think I'll skip that experiment. Sounds like a great way to blow an ACL.
post #38 of 41
Getting lauched into the air using ski tails is not an intentional move. Im sure everything can be done intentionally and repeted consistantly but its far from proper skiing technique we should be trying to incorporate into our own skiing. Stuff like this creeps into the WC because somewhere along the way talent and individuality was let ahead of everything else. But its wrong when less skilled individuals start copying moves that are clearly not necessary at recreational or even higher level of competition.
post #39 of 41
tdk6, Ron LeMaster did not just happen capture an overly rare position for Ted in that montage, and Ted does not ski Slalom making repeated unintentional mistakes,,, skiers that do that don't finish top 5 World Cup. Ted in the past has intentionally worked the tail more than most his competitors, and aft positions such as this at the end of the turn are the result. You asked in another forum if his pivot played a role in his fore/aft recovery. Very astute guided discovery question/observation. You bet, and it's why, even though in the launched image he appears momentarily grossly out of sorts, he is in fact in complete control of the situation, and actually gaining speed from his intentional catapult move.

As far as the application of this tactic to recreational skiing, I'm right with you, it's not a transition that the general public should strive for as a default transition. From a fore/aft balance aspect, better to emulate a Rocca transition.

On the other hand, Ted is displaying a balance/transition skill I strongly feel should be explored and developed, once at the appropriate point in the learning process. It's a skill that expands the parameters of performance options and the comfort zone. Once acquired, it's a skill that can come in quite handy on occasion. And outside the environment of rock hard steep icy race courses that require exact precision in execution, it's not as impossibly difficult skill to learn as some may think, once the proper prerequisite balance, edging and rotational skills have been developed. They actually can be great fun to do.

(Disclaimer: Skiing is a inherently dangerous sport. The author carries no responsibility for any negative outcomes that may arise from exploration of any ideas found in the above text,,, to include dizziness, muscle strain, symptoms indicative of gout, severe injury, or death)
post #40 of 41
Just another perspective.... The timing and intensity of the dorsiflexion action with the location of the cm will determine the effectiveness of the movement.

So, if the skier allows the skis/feet to get too far ahead (squirt) of the cm before they begin to dorsiflex it becomes a recovery move, However; if these movements are timed appropriately, the movement can be an offensive movement resulting in better edge grip at turn completion and the springboard affect aiding in cm projection into the next turn.
post #41 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Nobody said racers, like the one pictured above work on deliberately load the tails of their skis to jump into the air as a technique to lower their times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
tdk6, Ron LeMaster did not just happen capture an overly rare position for Ted in that montage, and Ted does not ski Slalom making repeated unintentional mistakes,,, skiers that do that don't finish top 5 World Cup. Ted in the past has intentionally worked the tail more than most his competitors, and aft positions such as this at the end of the turn are the result. You asked in another forum if his pivot played a role in his fore/aft recovery. Very astute guided discovery question/observation. You bet, and it's why, even though in the launched image he appears momentarily grossly out of sorts, he is in fact in complete control of the situation, and actually gaining speed from his intentional catapult move.
I stand corrected. Still I'll bet most racers would better spend their efforts elsewhere, but I'm no race coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Just another perspective.... The timing and intensity of the dorsiflexion action with the location of the cm will determine the effectiveness of the movement.

So, if the skier allows the skis/feet to get too far ahead (squirt) of the cm before they begin to dorsiflex it becomes a recovery move, However; if these movements are timed appropriately, the movement can be an offensive movement resulting in better edge grip at turn completion and the springboard affect aiding in cm projection into the next turn.
That is what I think.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Using ski tails to launch toward next turn