Skiing Europe.. Advice please!!! Thank you!

Since you've picked the destination of Italy and Austria, that left Switzerland: Zermatt.

Just curious, how are you getting to the Dolomites?

I could blab on for awhile.....

Lech Zurs very good.

High French Alps have lots to offer.

Cervinia is the cheap and convenient way to see Zermatt.

Dolomite super pass way over rated.
(ok, there is this:http://forums.epicski.com/index.php )

pm me when I have not had so much wine....

ps: Welcome to Epic!

Cheap, yes. Convenient...your definition of convenient seems to be different from others who's been there.

Val d'sire-that is all!! Truly it's not -fit it in.

I have skied many of the French resorts (Chamonix, Val d'Isere/Tignes, 3 Vallees (Courchevel/Meribel/Val Thorens), Megeve, La Grave; and some of the Swiss (Zermatt, Verbier) and Italian (Cervinia, Courmayeur).

Of these, the 3 Vallees is far and away the best for ultra-long cruising runs. Most are 3000-4000'+ vertical groomers at an intermediate-to-low expert pitch all served by most extensive and sophisticated lift system in the world. The s huge valleys are seamlessly connected and provide huge amounts of terrain.

Other noteworthy cruising mountains were Val d'Isere/Tignes, and to a slightly lesser extent Zermatt/Cervinia.

General Caveat: European resorts don't groom pistes as wide as Western US counterparts. Nor do they groom more than one or two per lift. Combined with the Euro mentality of 'staying on the piste', the grooming gets trashed early at many places and can be quite hard relative to the powder sitting just off piste.

The Dolomites - while beautiful - do not get a lot of snow and are not well connected. Very dis-jointed skiing. Unless its a scenery/Italian culture trip, why bother with them? For skiing, France is much better.

The Arlberg sounds great - especially Lech/Zurs for the type of terrain you are looking for. Also, Ischgl is suppose to have a ton of terrain to cruise -- which is near St. Anton/Innsbruck. Someday, I would like to get to this region.

Hi Dan!
I have skied the 3 Valleys and Tignes/Val Thorens a lot and both those will give you the longer cruising runs you look for, especially the 3 (4) Valleys.
Tignes is great for first tracks up the Grande Motte and all the way down if you get on the first furnicular of the day, followed by the cable car!
Also try going down to Les Brevieres, lovely scenery!
In the three Valleys, have lunch in the Bouc Blanc in La Tania, cheaper and
less pretentious than Courchevel or go down to Meribel Les Allues and have
great food at Le Martagon!
Enjoy

Well, one can drive right in and find an affordable place to stay, as opposed to having to go in on the train and haul you gear around looking for a place which doesn't cost a fortune. I stayed in a place in Cervinia within walking distance of the three cable cars to the glaciers. Long runs back to town if the is enough snow.

If you get everthing reserved in advance, Zermatt is nice and compact.

Glad to see the 3 Vallees mentioned. I go in from the "fourth Valley" up the long gondola from Maurienne.

Longest cruising run I know of is Deux Alpes, 7500 feet. Nice terrain there too.

One of the most fun, sort of flat but a real journey is the Männlichen in Grindelwald, 5155' back to townover bridges and through various mountain farms.

An ex racer like you might like Andermatt. I did a race there and afterwards followed some of the local racers down a run with a 5000' drop, over one natural roller after another at mach speed. One of the coolest and scariest runs I ever did.

Austria - Ischgl
Switzerland - Zermatt or Verbier
Italy - I don't know - go France - Chamonix instead

Lech/Cortina

We spent a week in mid-March last winter in Lech-Zurs and a week the year before in Cortina. A few details: my wife, 10 year old boy, and I traveled with another family on both trips. none of us are as accomplished skiers as you.
Briefly: Lech sits in a valley with peaks and runs on either side. Zurs is a short way down the same valley road. I'd consider Oberlech, a small pedestrian only enclave part way up the mountain above Lech. It's quiet and charming with maybe twenty chalet style hotels, and several nice restaurants, sun decks, etc. and a 5min. cable car ride down to the center of Lech which is a bit livelier with shops, bars, restaurants etc. It's all quite nice. Snow was good if a bit mushy on the sun side in the afternoon at that time of year. Good grooming and lots of off-piste, my impression. There are lots of fancy accomodations with spas, etc. One place you might look into that we liked the looks of was the more modest Hotel Ilga with a sun deck just next to the main lift up the mountian in Oberlech. That's all for now.

I have been going to Europe to ski for the past couple of winters. Bummed that the dollar has hit an all time low against the euro and I just can't afford it.

Anyways, Austria just has a great atmosphere around it's ski areas. IMHO the best. I really enjoyed Saint Anton and Bad Gastein (near Salzburg) . I was skiing off-piste powder and steeps and those places had it. My wife stuck to the corduroy groomers. I think her word was butter.

check out Snowheads
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewforum.php?f=8
for lots more discussion.

I talked to US Ski Team member turned OLN announcer Chad Fleischer about his favorites. They were Verbier, the Arlberg (Lech Zurs St Anton), and the 3 Valleys.

Tough to beat those spots.

If bombing down long groomers is your thing then I wouldn't recommend the Arlberg and Verbier (except Savoleyres maybe) - many bottlenecks and tight/blind spots and just very few real cruising runs. Go there for off-piste instead.

Second Trois Vallees (especially Meribel and Courchevel) and Tignes. Many more French resorts provide flat, groomed terrain. Zermatt/Cervinia, Grindelwald, Wengen, Mürren, Meiringen, Davos/Klosters, St. Moritz, they all work well in that respect too. In Austria it's the glaciers like Kaunertal, Stubai and areas like Sölden, Zillertal region (Mayrhofen, Hintertux), Schladming which are worthwhile in that respect.

Avoid Italy here, not too much suitable terrain.

In Switzerland, my single pick would be Zermatt. Hard to go wrong there. Access is good by rail from Zurich or Geneva. Village is great. Skiing good for everyone. Very snow-sure.
In Austria, I always recommend the Arlberg (St Anton and Lech/Zurs), in my view the best resort in Europe overall. Great skiing, including for experts, better snow record than elsewhere in Austria, great towns, lots to do at night, at least in StA. Probably better early than late season.
In Italy, I favor Val Gardena, though it is low and the skiing is easy. They have lots of snowmaking if you don't mind that and it really is unparalleled for village to village cruising. Good atmosphere, much less chaotic than Italian resorts further west.
I don't know France as well as the other Alpine countries, but agree with the posts above. The Trois Vals have the most skiing, Cham probably has some of the hairiest and is more atmospheric. Val D'Isere has something for everyone. I'd choose among those three.

Get yourself a copy of Where to Ski and Snowboard. That will ease your research task immensely.

France

Hi Dan,

I´m from Germany and back in the days I used to ski a lot in France... The other postings are completely true: go to the 3 Vallees or Val d`Isere/Tignes!!!
The Arlberg is a fantastic place in Austria and Zermatt must be great (but too expensive in my opinion .
That would be my top picks in those countries. For Italy: I skied in Val Gardena and the skiing there is nice but cannot compete with the two resorts in France.

Cheers,
Martin

Verbier
This is definitely one of the best of the Alps - especially for off-piste terrain. However, the cruising terrain is not very extensive. There are some middle mountain areas above the dual access gondolas that are not too inspiring -- terrain-wise. Otherwise, you need to traverse to the far reaches of the complex to similar terrain.


Zermatt
I would not travel here until mid/late season.
On the Zermatt website, the ski company specifically states that don't expect their expert terrain/Stockhorn until Feb. 1st. http://www.ski-zermatt.com/winter.html
When a ski area tells you do not expect an important chunk of the mountain before February, obviously they are not located in a great snowfall region. Furthermore, Zermatt now has snowmaking on 60% of its pistes. Another low snowfall sign.

However, the clientele at Zermatt does not seem to care much about this. The average skier is older, seems content just to take a run or two and then sit down for a $40 lunch while looking at the awesome scenery. I rather have a full choice of terrain, ski most of it and not do the 2 hr lunch.

In a way, leaving Verbier out of this discussion to date is inexcusable. Everything he says about Verbier skiing is quite true. But the resort itself doesn't (IMO) match up to the others here. It's a bit of a hole, really, compared to Zermatt or St Anton. But I find the comments above about Zermatt unfathomable. Show me a better snow record in Switzerland, anywhere (other than the sublime Andermatt, which is probably too small and specialized for our thread-starter). I skied Triftli in January a couple years back. Everything was open. And the idea that snowmaking is a sign of poor coverage just doesn't fly in Europe. Big resorts here have all invested in snowmaking now (maybe Tignes or Val Thorens hasn't bothered with it much). They just have too much on the line to not be able to guarantee skiing months ahead of time.

Zermatt

This is bogus. Check the historical snow fall reports. Zermatt snow fall compares very well to other top resorts in Europe. It is true that big part of their Gornegrat area does not open until Feb. you are punishing them for being honest. They could do what most other resorts do - lie about their snow reports and open sketchy terrain.

Zermatt has a lot to offer - other than the expert terrain in the Gornegrat area. But if that is important to you - schedule your trip after Feb. Which is exactly what we did.

and the bit about $40 lunches - that is true of most european resorts. I look at that as an advantage. Less people on the slopes

My comments about Zermatt snowfall are not ridiculous. I'm not denying it is a great area that people should ski once in their lives. I just think it is one of the best areas to save for much later in the season -- given its topography, glaciers, elevation -- and unexceptional snowfall to cover its mountain. If the poster is going to take 3 trips, why not wait until Zermatt has maximum coverage?

However, I am saying that its typical customers do not care too much about maximizing skiable terrain/snow experience. More than most areas, they are happy to stick to the groomed, eat in some of Zermatt's famous onslope eateries and take in the town/Matterhorn and come away fully satisfied. There are places like this in the US: Sun Valley, Aspen, etc.

Zermatt is very snow-sure area. Of course this is primarily due to the glacier which covers the Klein Matterhorn and upper Cervinia sectors.
However, possessing a glacier does not equal great snowfall. It does mean the snow is at least well-preserved (hence glaciers) due to elevation, exposure, etc. Yet the marketing perception is that Zermatt has great snow.

It is very difficult to get snowfall data for the Alps.

According to World Snowboarding Guide:
Zermatt Average annual snowfall: 3m

Verbier Average annual snowfall: 3.5 metres
Andermatt: 8.0 metres
Davos Average: 5.5 metres
Val/Tignes Average: 5.0 metres
Courchevel: 6.0 meters
St. Anton: 7 metres

These numbers correlate with the data available on snowfall for Courchevel and Val d'Isere websites tracked by the mountains themselves.


Zermatt also shows what is open everyday of the year.
http://bergbahnen.zermatt.ch/e/bahnen/
Typically you see very little besides blue and red pistes...and no where near 75-100% until relatively late in the season. I've watched this pretty religiously over the last couple of years.


Finally, you can look at Meteo Swiss maps for precipitation -- as well Swiss weather stations for historical snowfall/rainfall -- and see lower values in the Zermatt area.

It's one thing to suggest to go later in the season. Quite another to say Zermatt is "not located in a great snowfall region". There's no data to support what you said. I doubt you can find any such data. It's simply not true. In fact, if you pull out a map, you'll see Zermatt is very close to Verbier. Almost like the next valley. So the snowfall of Verbier can't be much better. Do you also consider Verbier "not located in a great snowfall region"?

Also, snowmaking isn't a sign of poor snow. Just heavy investment.

It may simply be Zermatt is so jaded it doesn't have to lie to attract clients. Or it's so good it doesn't have to?

I'm only gonna address what I said in my own post. I posited that Andermatt probably had the best snow record in Switzerland, but was too limited as a resort for our thread-starter. I took exception to your categorization of Zermatt's snow record vs. other Swiss resorts, so I'm not going to comment on St Anton (along with Lech/Zurs, maybe the best snow record in Europe) or Val D'Isere, Courcheval. Davos might get more snow than Zermatt; I'd guess it's about the same. Much less appealing resort, but you're right to include it. I don't think Verbier gets more snow than Zermatt, though, at least not from what I've seen and heard over the last several years. Engelberg gets a lot of snow too, but it's small like Andermatt. The King of Swiss snowfall is, I think, Saas Fe--very near Zermatt, but with much more limited skiing.

You should also consider to go to Ischgl in Austria and Les Arcs (=Paradiski) in France. Tignes and Val D'ísere (=Espace Killy), the 3 Vallees and Lech/Zürs/St Anton (=Arlberg) are mentioned before.
IMHO these are the 5 best areas to go to. Especially 3 Vallees is really huge! (600 km piste!) All of these 5 have superb skiing on- an off piste.
The looks of the the France resorts are not so nice though, for ambience and authentic villages Austria is better. The France resorts on the other hand, are famous for there linkednes and accesebillity.
Anyway, I hope you will enjoy your stay in Europe and feel free to drop any question!

To quote Where to Ski and Snowboard, "Zermatt has rocky terrain and a relatively dry climate. But it also has some of the highest slopes in Europe, and quite a lot of snowmaking."

Dry climates are not good snowfall zones.

Europe's best snow zone exists between Central Switzerland (Andermatt) into the Austrian Arlberg region (St. Anton) where 7.5m/300"+ falls yearly. That is a good snow zone with snow totals decreasing as you get into Italy.

Here is data that people seem to selectively ignore in my previous post.

http://www.worldsnowboardguide.com/
According to World Snowboarding Guide:

Zermatt Average annual snowfall: 3 metres / 120 inch
Verbier Average annual snowfall: 3.5 metres / 150 inch
Andermatt: 8.0 metres/ 320 inch.
Davos Average: 5.5 meters / 220 inch.
Val/Tignes Average: 5.0 meters / 200 inch
Courchevel: 6.0 meters / 240 inch.
St. Anton: 7 meters / 280 inch

You can see that Zermatt sits in a drier spot comparatively to other major resorts.


Here is a slide depicting the Swiss topography responsible for Zermatt's drier climate.

The Rhone valley opens the Valais to North and NW winds in the position of Grand St Bernard. Unfortunately, Zermatt is far to the west and Dent Blanche-Weisshorn (4500m) mountains form a natural barrier to the front from the N-NW limiting moisture flow.



Here is how a typical storm hits the Swiss Alps. (source: MeteoSwiss)
Note how Zermatt receives just a few cm while many other locations get decent snow amounts. Verbier - approx 40cm. Engelberg and Andermatt - 50cm++. St. Moritz - not very good either.




Here is Season snowpack information @ 2500m. http://www.slf.ch/swiss-snow/hsrdc.html
Since Zermatt is the highest resort in the Alps, you might expect it to have the greatest snowpack. It does not since it sits in a comparatively poor snow zone. Again Andermatt and Engleberg have heavy snowpacks and the mountains in front of Zermatt.







I am very familiar with locations of Chamonix, Verbier and Zermatt. (I am trying to plan to do the Haute Route for this Spring). While geographically close (approx. 20-30 miles), the distances and mountain topography are enough for snowfall variation as shown in prior maps.

Some US examples of declining snowfalls with relatively close distances:

1. Alta/Snowbird are located less than 10 miles from Deer Valley/The Canyons, while the snowfall declines from 500" in Little Cottonwood to about 300" in the Park City area.
2. Kirkwood/Squaw/Alpine all receive approx. 500" per year. Northstar - less than 10 miles away - receives closer to 300".
3. Targhee vs Jackson. Another snow shadow with a separation of 10 miles or less. 500" at Targhee and 350-400" at Jackson.

There is generally a direct link between snowfall and % snowmaking investment. Snowmaking creates an economically viable business. I'm sure you could find a statistically significant correlation between snowfall and snowmaking investment.

For example, Chamonix has almost no snowmaking yet Courmayeur has a significant investment (50-70%) sitting on the lee side of Mt. Blanc.

Sun Valley and Keystone are in snow poor areas (approx. 200" or less) and have huge snowmaking facilities (60-70%++). Lake Louise is another poor snowfall area that has a large snowmaking plant.

Resorts like Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, Solitude, Squaw Valley, Alpine Meadows, Mt. Hood, Stevens Pass, Mt. Baker, Targhee -- really have minimal to no snowmaking investment.


Conclusion

Zermatt is a relatively low snowfall Swiss mountain compared to other European resorts, and should be visited later in the season to allow maximum snow accumulation on the Continent's highest terrain. As indicated by the resort, Zermatt should not be visited before February to take advantage of some of its best terrain.

Saas Fee is in the same high and dry climate as Zermatt.

These areas preserve snow well due to altitude, but do not necessarily recieve a lot.

http://www.worldsnowboardguide.com/r...sfee/index.cfm
Average annual snowfall: 2.7m

It's blocked/shielded from the West/Northwest flow as well by the same mountains as Zermatt.

Those high places may be the way to go. The Alps have had more than their share of a long term warming trend. The Swiss glaciers have completely melted in past warm spells. Hopefully, they are not doing it again. (thought I'd help a perfectly good thread degenerate further)

Just an idea

Here and in other ski pages is ease to find mentions of how huge and good 3 valle shoud be.

Austria, have a great reputation on snow and several resorts. And best of all You can go from one to another quickly , since the distances are not so big.

Italy and Switzerland could be very expensive. But astonishing for sure.

But remember that you'll be in Europe and Ski is not the whole thing.

Enjoy the best of (France/Austia/Italy/Switzerland wherever) can give you. The food on France, the chocolate on Switzerland, a fantastic pizza(not a P Hut certainly) in Italy and so on. Enjoy the culture the history everywhere, enjoy the people.

At last, the ski experience will be great, no matter where you are going to!!!

My point of view.

And, back with great pics and tell us about your adventures.

Have a great trip!

Cheers~
Eduardo

Not Kitzbuhel, then?

Available online in an abbreviated form at:
http://www.wtss.co.uk

Interesting what chrisc says, though our views really don't differ that much (I hope I didn't come across as snarky in my earlier post). Remember, I'm not contesting superior snow records from resorts in other countries (St Anton, etc.), or at Andermatt (unbeatable for storm-catching). And I acknowledged that leaving Davos out might have been an oversight (Davos kind of blows, though). But really, you're showing me that Verbier gets half a meter more of snow per year than Zermatt? That's not really so much. At that point, I'd stick with Zermatt, because of: a) superior snow preservation (as you note); b) access to Cervinia, which might get more snow than either, and always has good snow; and c) the fact that (IMO) Zermatt is a much better all-around resort. Not to knock Verbier, which has great expert skiing. But point-for-point (including, on balance, snow/snow preservation), I'd still choose Zermatt.