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Mogul technique: What is "real" mogul skiing? - Page 6

post #151 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
This is something I found last year, a utube vid from a Chuck Martin mogul camp. During winter, Chuck holds two adult camps over at winter park to work on mogul skiing alone. The vid shows the instructor, noticed his hip location, it’s forward, thus it allows him to bend his legs when he absorbs the bumps, the troughs were deep enough for him to go near max range. His upper body is not jarring; the leg by bending and timing it correctly is taking the impact. Yes, there is some impact but not as much as people believe, as Dipiro mentions and from my experience; the impact is equivalent to jogging. Also notice that he is using WC techniques in natural (actually skier) made moguls (from first hand account, the moguls were not made by seeding them with a machine). He keeps his hand in front, elbows are held out when he poles and the non poling hand counters the upper body rotation. A nice visual of some of the WC tech that has been mentioned in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw1xEOWbFIY
Jack, With all due respect, I just do not see it the same as you. In this video I see a skier on a low angle mogul run in good snow, going slow. He does speed up toward the end of the run. There appears to be a lot of unneccesary arm movement, but I agree with you, not much impact because of the slow speed and low-angle natural moguls. However, when I see the non-pole hand punching forward to counter rotate against the lower body, I always assess that as the reaction needed to counteract the force of the ski's edge-deflection off the side of the mogul, in order to help the skier stay in the zipperline. When a skier stays in the zipperline, using this kind of turning technique, it is imperative that the absorption phase be perfectly timed to avoid impact to the body. Very few skiers can complete a medium or high speed run in the zipper without incurring at least a few body-jarring slams each run, due to mis-timed A & E. Again, this is why wc skiing style has no appeal to the masses. The skier in this video is more upright than alot of wc stylist and that is why he can drive his hips more forward. His hip forward position allows him to keep more of the ski in front of his boots on the snow. I think he could be a SVMM skier someday.

That said, I do enjoy watching a fast zipperline descent with the kind of air show put on by the likes of Nate Roberts. The bad news is this kind of skiing does not work all over the mountain and especially not on steep terrain. I know you will strongly disagree with that comment and I believe, contrary to what BMM says, that we really do need to get together and share information on our different approaches while actually skiing. Jack, I respect your critical analysis and enjoy engaging with you. I have not forgotten about your desire for more info on my turn-blocking comment. I will try to get to that in a day or two.
post #152 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
Very few skiers can complete a medium or high speed run in the zipper without incurring at least a few body-jarring slams each run, due to mis-timed A & E.
I'll confirm this observation. I spent a couple of hours getting instruction from an ex competitive bumper and that's all I needed to convince me that my knees and back couldn't take the pounding from my mistakes.
post #153 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
No, unfortunately, I will not be joining you. I'm studying ski area operations in school, and am working every weekend, break, and holiday at the local ski hill. I really don't have the time.
BMM, I am thinking you must be going to school in Leadville, CO. Are you skiing the zipperline at Cooper Hill? When I was a USSA amateur I competed in a mogul contest there and because the hill never had moguls they used trash cans to construct the course. If this is your local hill - what do you do for moguls now-a-days? Or, do you make the drive to Copper?

I am disappointed you won't be joining us. But, if you change you mind you know where to find me.
post #154 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
BMM, I am thinking you must be going to school in Leadville, CO. Are you skiing the zipperline at Cooper Hill? When I was a USSA amateur I competed in a mogul contest there and because the hill never had moguls they used trash cans to construct the course. If this is your local hill - what do you do for moguls now-a-days? Or, do you make the drive to Copper?

I am disappointed you won't be joining us. But, if you change you mind you know where to find me.
First of all, in response to your above post, I DO think we should get together and compare technique and just have a good time. I just don't like the childish "let's see who's better" idea. I would absolutely love the opportunity to go out and ski with you, and with anyone from this board or from any other. If you want to make a Summit County trip sometime, I'll meet you at just about any area.

Yeah, Cooper's the local hill. Haven't skied there before... I'm a first year student, and I'm not from the area. From what folks tell me, they only really have one run that bumps up. I'll be working there, and skiing Copper, A-Basin, Loveland, and WP/MJ on days off.

I'm also sorry I won't be joining you, but I really don't have the time to make a trip like that. The only trip I intend to take for skiing purposes is to Mammoth to explore employment and mogul opportunities. Beyond that, I'm pretty busy with classes, labs, and work.

Next year might be different, though. If you're getting something together next season, drop me an email and I'll certainly try to make it.

Again, if you get to the Summit County area this season, please don't hesitate to look me up. I'll ski with you anytime. That may be the "break through" that we each need to fully appreciate each other's technique.
post #155 of 161
This is one of my favorite bump movies. I think there was a thread or at least a mention last spring. There are a bunch of different skiers skiing with a variety of styles (some of which I think you'd endorse) on the same line (even a monoski).

http://www.mammoth-snowman.com/mammo...in-moguls.html

These videos also have much better camerawork than most of the competetion (or even promo) videos that have been posted here. I don't know mammoth-snowman's story, but if he is an amateur that makes it even more impressive.

Which school or era would these guys come closest to belonging to?
post #156 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipps View Post
In this video I see a skier on a low angle mogul run in good snow, going slow. He does speed up toward the end of the run. There appears to be a lot of unneccesary arm movement, but I agree with you, not much impact because of the slow speed and low-angle natural moguls. However, when I see the non-pole hand punching forward to counter rotate against the lower body, I always assess that as the reaction needed to counteract the force of the ski's edge-deflection off the side of the mogul, in order to help the skier stay in the zipperline. When a skier stays in the zipperline, using this kind of turning technique, it is imperative that the absorption phase be perfectly timed to avoid impact to the body. Very few skiers can complete a medium or high speed run in the zipper without incurring at least a few body-jarring slams each run, due to mis-timed A & E. Again, this is why wc skiing style has no appeal to the masses. The skier in this video is more upright than alot of wc stylist and that is why he can drive his hips more forward. His hip forward position allows him to keep more of the ski in front of his boots on the snow. I think he could be a SVMM skier someday.
Your comments tell me everything I need to know.

When a SVMM skier becomes an Olympian or competes in a World cup maybe he/she can coach for Chuck Martin or John Smart.
post #157 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
This is one of my favorite bump movies. I think there was a thread or at least a mention last spring. There are a bunch of different skiers skiing with a variety of styles (some of which I think you'd endorse) on the same line (even a monoski).

http://www.mammoth-snowman.com/mammo...in-moguls.html

These videos also have much better camerawork than most of the competetion (or even promo) videos that have been posted here. I don't know mammoth-snowman's story, but if he is an amateur that makes it even more impressive.

Which school or era would these guys come closest to belonging to?
Some serious rippin going on. Notice some of these guys are using WC tech; they make constant snow contact, low impact on the bumps, speed control and so on.

Oh yeah, they just need one line. They don't have to turn on the tops or use line selection for speed control.
post #158 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
Again, if you get to the Summit County area this season, please don't hesitate to look me up. I'll ski with you anytime. That may be the "break through" that we each need to fully appreciate each other's technique.
My dream ski trip to Colorado: Let's see, how about one day at Silverton and then an easy hard night's drive to Telluride for day two. Can't promise anything, but I think it is a possibility. Do you know jack97? If so, would like to share some on-snow time with him as well during this outing.

Silverton will test our all-mtn skills and Telluride will be all about steep moguls. http://www.silvertonmountain.com/

Anyone else want to be part of the fun?

I am excited, as I have wanted to ski Silverton for some time now. The only caveat is working it in around filming, writing, WC events, the US team tryouts, etc.

This thread has deteriorated into silliness and I am certainly part of the problem. But when I post again, I for one, promise to return to a technique based discussion.
post #159 of 161
bushmogulmaster  HOW TO SKI FASTER IN THE MOGULS U.S.  SKI Team has  camp in Chili At El-Colorado snows 7 feet in 3 weeks. Mogul Course  was built and had a pace set time of 24 seconds and SVMM mogul method gets some momentum as the fastest skier goes 22.30 using SVMM is Shane Cordeau next fastest skier was skiing it in 23.20and had to adjust his jump from a 720 to 3 twister the SVMM skier went off the jump at mach speed and did the 720 jump. Why does the SVMM go faster then the zipper lining.
Our opinion is that there is less impact at the bottom of the turn and the ski is engaged early in the turn high in the C. Therefore if you are stacked and just turning in the lower part of the C you may call this direct but you are really slower than the skier who is rounder and higher in the C and covers more of the run from side to side yet all his momentum is directed down the mt. He is racing his skis to the finish and wants to beat them to the bottom by projecting his body mass 1st using the pole flick to keep this going down. Let SVMM bring real skiing back to moguls and stop try to reinvent skiing. There is 1 way the ski was designed to turn that is load the ski into reverse camber and feel the rebound you will get by using edging and downward pressure as early in the turn as possible. There is more to skiing moguls than zipper lining ski over the tops of the moguls on real mogul runs.
Another analogy to speed is how a  race car driver negotiates a turn. Speed and direction are controlled at the beginning of the turn [ie: the top of C in a ski turn]and then the gas is applied accelerating the car through and out of the turn to achieve maximize speed! This would be in contrast to driving your car into a turn at maximum speed and having to brake in the middle or latter part of the turn to keep from wrecking, thereby radically scrubbing speed. This would be akin to current world cup skiers having a stacked body position, riding a flat ski in the rut line,and slamming into the front side of the mogul to control speed. Clearly the SVMM utilizing the top of the C, turn to set up direction change/speed control while making round turns has the ability to be faster [in terms of speed] technique.
post #160 of 161
look out here we come keep looking check you tube nationals 2009 Shane Cordeau and weep
post #161 of 161

Mogul technique: What is "real" mogul skiing?

Getting to the bottom fairly quickly and without getting hurt is what I call "real mogul skiing".  Doing it REALLY fast by navigating the ruts between the bumps  (zipperline) with very little upper body movement and being able to do a few air tricks on the way would be what I call "World Class Mogul Skiing".  These days I just try to get through them at a decent but safe pace unless I'm trying to show up Bumpfreaq
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