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Mogul technique: What is "real" mogul skiing?

post #1 of 161
Thread Starter 
I don't want this to turn into the battle that mogul technique threads often turn into here. I'm just curious to hear peoples' opinions.

Mogul skiing is my life, and I hope to compete on a serious level in the near future. I've spent lots of time studying many mogul skiing techniques, attending camps, etc.

To me, real mogul skiing is World Cup mogul skiing. In my own personal view, everything else is sub par, misleading, and inefficient. And I'm not just talking about expert skiers. I think World Cup is the only real method for all types of skiers, occasional recreational skiers and seasoned experts alike. If executed properly, the WC style can be effectively applied to all moguls on all trails for skiers of all abilities and all ages. It's not all about speed and ripping the tightest zipper. It's about technique.

What do you consider "real" mogul skiing?

Again, I don't want to argue who's right or who's wrong right now. I'd just like to hear some opinions.
post #2 of 161
I'd say what you do is "real mogul" skiing defining "real" as being mogul skiing being executed at the highest skill level. As for WC technique being applicable and the right choice for all skiers in all mogul conditions, I'm not sure I can go with you there. You are young, strong, highly skilled, very experienced(100 day seasons). You represent a small subset of skiers. For most of us, we would like to enjoy the challenge mogul skiing represents, but need to implement effective techniques that are not quite as demanding on our bodies and allow for less than the fastest reflexes.
post #3 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
If executed properly, the WC style can be effectively applied to all moguls on all trails for skiers of all abilities and all ages.
I consider any skier that can link turns with grace and style in a bump run to be a real mogul skier. The technique they use is secondary to their ability to ski in the bumps.
post #4 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns View Post
For most of us, we would like to enjoy the challenge mogul skiing represents, but need to implement effective techniques that are not quite as demanding on our bodies and allow for less than the fastest reflexes.
I think this comes from a misconception about what WC style skiing really is. That's something we can discuss that in a another thread some other time.

But I can appreciate what you're saying and respect your opinion.
post #5 of 161
Isn't WC "style" more about the path they ski more than anything else? I agree that the WC people have the most efficient technique for that path, but do you deny that there are easier, gentler paths through moguls? Perhaps WC "technique" is still most efficient for those paths?
post #6 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
Isn't WC "style" more about the path they ski more than anything else? I agree that the WC people have the most efficient technique for that path, but do you deny that there are easier, gentler paths through moguls? Perhaps WC "technique" is still most efficient for those paths?
No, actually... that's a common misconception. It's not just about the path.

I'm going to launch a significant mogul skiing website hopefully later this month, and there's a 40 printed page comprehensive guide to skiing WC style. I would encourage you to read through it. It will clear up some misconceptions about what WC skiing really means.

Some of these misconceptions include:


*WC mogul skiing is bad for your knees
*WC involves SAB (Slamming & Banging)
*WC is a flat ski technique
*WC is only about speed in the zipper
*WC is only for hardcore mogul skiers
*WC is only for young people
*WC technique is only about skiing one line, the zipper line.
*Zipperline skiing is not "real" skiing
*There is some magical "secret" to WC skiing

Each of these is a common belief by most recreational skiers, and even many experts (including instructors).


But again, I'd just like to hear some opinions, not debate technique. You can read the truth about the above misconceptions and misinformation when I launch the new site.
post #7 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
No, actually... that's a common misconception. It's not just about the path.

I'm going to launch a significant mogul skiing website hopefully later this month, and there's a 40 printed page comprehensive guide to skiing WC style. I would encourage you to read through it. It will clear up some misconceptions about what WC skiing really means.

Some of these misconceptions include:


*WC mogul skiing is bad for your knees
*WC involves SAB (Slamming & Banging)
*WC is a flat ski technique
*WC is only about speed in the zipper
*WC is only for hardcore mogul skiers
*WC is only for young people
*WC technique is only about skiing one line, the zipper line.
*Zipperline skiing is not "real" skiing
*There is some magical "secret" to WC skiing

Each of these is a common belief by most recreational skiers, and even many experts (including instructors).


But again, I'd just like to hear some opinions, not debate technique. You can read the truth about the above misconceptions and misinformation when I launch the new site.
Please do make the announcement here! Thanks for the heads up.
post #8 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Please do make the announcement here! Thanks for the heads up.
Sorry, that wasn't intended to be an announcement. I just didn't want to get into the details here. Nitty gritty mogul technique debate unfortunately tends to end up in an argument for some reason.
post #9 of 161
So you're just trying to generate some advance buzz for your significant website. Alrighty then.
post #10 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
So you're just trying to generate some advance buzz for your significant website. Alrighty then.

Nope, not at all. I don't feel it necessary to "generate buzz." It happened to be relevant.

Honestly, I just want to get some other viewpoints about mogul skiing. Since I'm so into WC skiing, I don't talk much about other techniques. I really just want to hear opinions, not debate technique. That's why I didn't address the above.
post #11 of 161
Don't worry, I'm happy to wait for it. IMO, we need a dedicated mogul technique site.
post #12 of 161
OK, I'll get with the program. Real mogul skiing involves bumps that are not made especially for competition. It also involves beer.
post #13 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Don't worry, I'm happy to wait for it. IMO, we need a dedicated mogul technique site.
Yeah, it's one area that's been overlooked as far as decent websites are concerned. And there's so much to write about it. I've got a couple of pros and coaches involved and helping me out, so hopefully it will prove a valuable resource.

I'll definitely let you know when I'm finished.
post #14 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
OK, I'll get with the program. Real mogul skiing involves bumps that are not made especially for competition. It also involves beer.
Right, on both accounts!
post #15 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
Yeah, it's one area that's been overlooked as far as decent websites are concerned. And there's so much to write about it. I've got a couple of pros and coaches involved and helping me out, so hopefully it will prove a valuable resource.

I'll definitely let you know when I'm finished.
How are your ideas different than Dan DiPiro's?
post #16 of 161
WC is timed
post #17 of 161

Bumps

BushMogulMaster - I come from the holy land of mogul skiing but I never really cared for the FIS WC style of rippin through the bumps. I grew up applying regular skiing technique to moguls and found myselfe able to ski efficiently in almost any kind of bumps. The only bumps that made me struggle big time was the man made short distance apart steep often hard icy moguls with deep rutted tracks in the zipper line made for FIS competitions or just practice. That teached me early on that WC mogul bump skiing is something different and it requires a completely different technique. Im a true believer in many of the myths you are listing and I would love to be proven wrong. For example, almost all WC pros from arround here have had multiple knee surgery. Ok, they might have had surgery whatever technique they used in the bumps but fact remains that moguls wear and tear on your knees. WC style in particular since its freeking fast and skied on hills that would normally be a death trap for any intermediate skier not used to bumps. Its going to be interesting to check out your new site because bump skiing is still something only a few skiers can master (check out your PM).
post #18 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How are your ideas different than Dan DiPiro's?
A lot of it goes hand in hand with what DiPiro's book preaches. Whereas DiPiro talks a lot about rotary turns (essentially skidded), I talk more about about today's WC techniuqe of ankle/hip/knee angulation and edging as it relates to mogul turns. I take a slightly different approach to absorption and extension as well, stressing more about staying on the balls of your feet and driving the tips (which should cause the heals to move toward the buttocks). I address common mishaps in the bumps, and how to get out of them without stopping or leaving your line.

I actually fully support Dan's book, and recommend it in my guide. My guide essentially just goes into more detail about a lot of the techniques, and has a little more of an updated slant (since I've been corresponding with current world cup skiers and coaches).
post #19 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
For example, almost all WC pros from arround here have had multiple knee surgery. Ok, they might have had surgery whatever technique they used in the bumps but fact remains that moguls wear and tear on your knees. WC style in particular since its freeking fast and skied on hills that would normally be a death trap for any intermediate skier not used to bumps.
I would be willing to bet those folks you know were probably WC pros 10 years ago or more. The reason I say this, is because the WC style of a decade ago is quite different technique-wise than it is now. 80s and early 90s WC skiing was actually pretty rough on the knees, because it was much more of a flat ski technique that involved bashing into the bumps, and didn't include pre-absorption.

All of this has changed quite a lot. More on that later.
post #20 of 161
Quote:
For example, almost all WC pros from arround here have had multiple knee surgery.
These days, most knee injuries by competitive bump skiers are from bad landings from airs, not from bumps themselves. World cup technique is surprisingly low-impact.
post #21 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by user View Post
These days, most knee injuries by competitive bump skiers are from bad landings from airs, not from bumps themselves. World cup technique is surprisingly low-impact.
A key differentiation. Knee injuries in bump skiing now are rarely turn impact related.
post #22 of 161
Mogul technique to me means techniques that limit speed using ski tipping and scraping with the skis edges as well as well timed absorption and extension movements using the ski bases while linking turns through tall tight hard bumps.
post #23 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
I would be willing to bet those folks you know were probably WC pros 10 years ago or more. The reason I say this, is because the WC style of a decade ago is quite different technique-wise than it is now. 80s and early 90s WC skiing was actually pretty rough on the knees, because it was much more of a flat ski technique that involved bashing into the bumps, and didn't include pre-absorption.

All of this has changed quite a lot. More on that later.
The reason mogul skiing wears out the knees is that constant knee bending as faar as it goes and then some at a very high frequenzy all day long year after year. Even thou Im not skiing nearly as radically as WC bumpers I can feel the stress on my knees from just a few runs. Note that my knees are in great shape except for that tennis accident last year. You mention that flat ski technique and that is exatly what I have been preaching to be bad bad bad through out the years. Do we finally get a change for the better? Oh yes, the jumps.... yes they must be the primary reason for injury but that constant wear and tear on the knees is something that does not come over night. Im 45 and Im glad I stayed away from that zipper line bashing back in the 80s .
post #24 of 161
stand up when turning bow down after the turn
post #25 of 161
BushMogulMaster, in my opinion you completely miss one important point about WC mogul skiing that drives technique. I guess you are too close to the subject and can't see the forest for the trees.

WC mogul skiing is driven by the Rules of Judging. As such the techniques employed are efficient.

Any WC bumper can slow things down and can also rip any other terrain but that does not mean that the average Joe Blow can do so. There are many people who would like to ski moguls who simply do not have the flexibility to exclusively use WC mogul technique. There are modifications to WC technique available that greatly helps those who are not flexible.

I will concede that your myth busting is largely true and that WC technique is efficient and can work for the majority of skiers.
post #26 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
BushMogulMaster, in my opinion you completely miss one important point about WC mogul skiing that drives technique. I guess you are too close to the subject and can't see the forest for the trees.

WC mogul skiing is driven by the Rules of Judging. As such the techniques employed are efficient.
If you're talking about The FIS Judges' Manual for mogul skiing, I look at it in some form just about every day. The section on turns is as follows:

"Turns: There are Four Points to Consider

Fall Line:

Skiing the fall line is considered the shortest way from the Start to the Finish,. To achieve the maximum points for fall line, the competitor should stay in the selected fall line out of the start gate.

Carving:

In carving action the hip is following the skier's centerline (hip is not doing side to side movement). Legs should be held together. Turns are controlled by carving, through a combination of hip-knee and ankle angulation. Carving is the result of correctly-timed weight shifting. The turn is carving when the ski tail is following the tip.

Absorption and Extension:

The skier should follow the shape of the mogul through absorption from the start until the top of the mogul. Extension starts right after the top of the mogul. Extension also follows the shape of the mogul. Pressure between the skis and snow should remain the same during absorption and extension, absorbing as the skier moves up and extending as the skier moves down. Additionally, the skier should aggressively utilize the moguls to assist initiation of turns, rather than waiting for the moguls.

Upper Body:

The head should remain still, facing downhill. The chest should also stay straight and natural. Hands stay in front of the body in a natural position. Pole plants should be light and wrist movement goes forward."


So I'm not really sure what you're getting at here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Any WC bumper can slow things down and can also rip any other terrain but that does not mean that the average Joe Blow can do so. There are many people who would like to ski moguls who simply do not have the flexibility to exclusively use WC mogul technique. There are modifications to WC technique available that greatly helps those who are not flexible.

I will concede that your myth busting is largely true and that WC technique is efficient and can work for the majority of skiers.

I have worked with and skied with many an average Joe Blow, who had tried different techniques. They all end up skiing WC technique because it works the best in all conditions. Again, it's not just about speed, and it's not just about the tightest zipper. It's a way to turn your skis in the bumps.
post #27 of 161
Thank you for posting the rules Bushmogulmaster. Its all there in writing. Staying in the fall line, feet tight together, facing downhill always. These judging constraints are nowhere to be found in racing. Recreational skiing follows racing closely as a result. It is a mistake to say the same thing about WC mogul skiing due to these restrictions.

At 52 years old I ski moguls all day. I prefer moguls follwing a freezing rain. I use more turn shape and less extension and absorbtion to control speed than WC. That necessitates that I have some air between my legs and my upper body does not always face right downhill. My upper body is more relaxed and follows the skis a bit more than WC.

If you follow WC technique, extension and absorbtion accounts for a good share of speed control as you do not have the ability to turn the skis very far out of the fall line. This is quite fine for people with flexibility but generally by the time you reach 40 years old you will need to switch to turn shape as your primary speed controller and extension and absorbtion are secondary but complimentary. If this were not true, there would be a lot more old guys in the bumps.
post #28 of 161
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Thank you for posting the rules Bushmogulmaster. Its all there in writing. Staying in the fall line, feet tight together, facing downhill always. These judging constraints are nowhere to be found in racing. Recreational skiing follows racing closely as a result. It is a mistake to say the same thing about WC mogul skiing due to these restrictions.

At 52 years old I ski moguls all day. I prefer moguls follwing a freezing rain. I use more turn shape and less extension and absorbtion to control speed than WC. That necessitates that I have some air between my legs and my upper body does not always face right downhill. My upper body is more relaxed and follows the skis a bit more than WC.
And at age 50, my dad still absolutely rips WC style all over the mountain. He doesn't have the same range of motion he used to, but it doesn't really adversely affect his skiing. And no, he wasn't a competitor. He's just a skier who likes bumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If you follow WC technique, extension and absorbtion accounts for a good share of speed control as you do not have the ability to turn the skis very far out of the fall line. This is quite fine for people with flexibility but generally by the time you reach 40 years old you will need to switch to turn shape as your primary speed controller and extension and absorbtion are secondary but complimentary. If this were not true, there would be a lot more old guys in the bumps.
With today's WC technique, if you read the section on "carving," you'll see that edging is where a lot of our speed control comes from, along with A&E.

Have you spent any amount of time skiing bumps in N. New England? You might be surprised by the number of older zipper skiers! I've skied with quite a few folks over 40 who are either already accomplished WC style skiers, or are working their way there.

I really truly believe that age isn't as big a factor as most people would think.


Anyway, can you describe your turn shape that you use in bumps a little more?
post #29 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
Carving:

In carving action the hip is following the skier's centerline (hip is not doing side to side movement). Legs should be held together. Turns are controlled by carving, through a combination of hip-knee and ankle angulation. Carving is the result of correctly-timed weight shifting. The turn is carving when the ski tail is following the tip.
How much sidecut is in a bump ski? I'm having a hard time seeing how those very rapid tiny turns are carved. Looks to me like they are primarily a pivot.
post #30 of 161
Pierre, is he implying that we are old?

WC style bump skiing is best done in tight bumps as in, a wc bump course. 'Zipper line' skiing fun and possible for an old boy when the bumps are tight.

When the lines are spread out and the bumps are large, I find that I get slammed due to the spaces.

It's a good day when the snow is soft and the lines are tight. But it's not often like that so I go around the bump and use 'a & e'. It's fun to use all three methods.

This is the third person to visit Epic to talk about bump technique - out of the blue. BMM, I am glad you are here. I learned alot from Dipro. Hope you will stick around and share your knowledge.

bz
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