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Using WC race montages to justify technique - Page 4

post #91 of 269
Must be a Canadian thing.:
post #92 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Who's definition is this?...Where did it come from?...

Darn, and I thought I was carving!

You may be....with the simplified and correct definition of pivoting....carving and pivoting are not mutually exclusive as some here would suggest. The Rocca vids show this well.


The definition comes from the CSIA and CSCF. I have also taught in New Zealand and Australia with top pros from around the world (Australia, New Zealand, Austria, USA, France, Argentina, Japan, and Germany to name a few) and would suggest to you that from my expierance that definition seems pretty universal amongst the learned.

Further that definition has been around since I begain skiing and certainly as long as I have been racing, teaching/coaching, which means it has been around well in excess of 30 years.
post #93 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Who's definition is this?...Where did it come from?...

Darn, and I thought I was carving!
LOL !!!!
post #94 of 269
Well, I must have missed that interpretation of the definition as related to skiing somewhere along the way?? I must be slow...

This seems to be a pretty B R O A D definition! In fact it would seem that every turn elicits pivoting as defined within the parameters of your definition? How does that definition help to clarify or focus a conversation about skiing?

My misunderstood conception of pivoting while turning has always been the difference in direction of travel of the cm and where the skis were pointed. the more they diverged the more pivoting was dominant, the less they diverged them closer to carving. In fact I remember a great diagram in "ATM Teaching Concepts III" that illustrated a continuum with pivoting on one end and carving on the other and the blending in between of the two actions. The closer we moved toward one end of the spectrum the less of the other was being employed. Watching the video above, pivoting is not the most dominant thought that comes to my mind. Sure there were rotary movements but they did not appear to be the dominant turning power at any point in the turn? rather he did a great job in resisting the twist.

I guess I am not learned yet?
post #95 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Would you please explain how those guys are redirecting their skis and how its taught to the juniors.
Thought you'd never ask.

KISS version of what these guys are doing:

- Carve a turn

- Through the bottom half of the turn, keep upper body facing downhill.
As turn proceeds, strong anticipation counter is developed.

- To finish turn, flex the legs to let the skis continue to carve under the
skier, as his/her body begins to release the turn and move downhill.

- As skis and skier separate, skis will lose engagement with the snow, and
become light. When they do, allow the anticipated body to uncoil, skis
twisting to follow the body downhill.

- As soon as ski-to-snow contact is re-established, feather rapidly into a carve

- Repeat, repeat, repeat.


How to teach? Tons of preparatory skill development in BALANCE, edging, carving, steering, rotational skills, transition versatility, flexion/extension, etc. Do drills that develop upper/lower body rotational separation. Work on retractions. Do drills that get the skis crossing aggressively under the body. Do drills that separate the skis from the snow, and foster comfort with that separation.
post #96 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Well, I must have missed that interpretation of the definition as related to skiing somewhere along the way?? I must be slow...
Scary....I know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
This seems to be a pretty B R O A D definition! In fact it would seem that every turn elicits pivoting as defined within the parameters of your definition? How does that definition help to clarify or focus a conversation about skiing?
It is actually very S P E C I F I C. How can that possibly be intrepreted as broad? IT APPLICATION however is B R O A D, so yes it is true pivoting is used in most turns that we do. IT was never designed to clarify or focus conversations...it was designed to high light one very key and important aspect of skiing. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason it is so crucial, as pivoting, as defined above, is pretty unique to skiing...that is why it is so hard to learn, and we spend so much time teaching it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

My misunderstood conception of pivoting while turning has always been the difference in direction of travel of the cm and where the skis were pointed. the more they diverged the more pivoting was dominant, the less they diverged them closer to carving.
Ya, you missed it. The above is the RESULT of pivoting...not PIVOTING itself....hence the more you pivot, the greater your steering angle is, hence the greater the difference in direction of travel of your COM (ie the tangent to the arc you are skiing) and the actual direction your skis are pointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
In fact I remember a great diagram in "ATM Teaching Concepts III" that illustrated a continuum with pivoting on one end and carving on the other and the blending in between of the two actions. The closer we moved toward one end of the spectrum the less of the other was being employed. Watching the video above, pivoting is not the most dominant thought that comes to my mind. Sure there were rotary movements but they did not appear to be the dominant turning power at any point in the turn?
Yup totally agree, that is pretty much what Rick, myself and others see too. Pivot entry, into a strong carve...most of the turn is done with a carve...but pivoting is still present, and necessary for those turns...but not dominant in the turn...only in the ENTRY...hence "Pivot Entry".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
rather he did a great job in resisting the twist.
Resisting what twist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I guess I am not learned yet?
You are now.
post #97 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
My misunderstood conception of pivoting while turning has always been the difference in direction of travel of the cm and where the skis were pointed. the more they diverged the more pivoting was dominant, the less they diverged them closer to carving.
That's one way to look at it. During the transition, when skis are light, the pivot actually brings them back into alignment with the CM direction of travel, but then diverges from it again in the opposite direction. The bigger the pivot, the bigger that opposite side divergence. It's the whole point of the pivot to create that divergence. When contact is re-established, that directional divergence comes to a screeching halt, and the body again follows the skis.



Quote:
Watching the video above, pivoting is not the most dominant thought that comes to my mind.
Mine either. BALANCE, precision, control, smoothness, simplicity, elegance, athleticism.


Quote:
Sure there were rotary movements but they did not appear to be the dominant turning power at any point in the turn? .
They were the dominant turning power at the top of the turn. During the body and bottom of the turn it was caving.


Quote:
rather he did a great job in resisting the twist
Hmmmm,,,. This is one of the best skiers on the planet. When he wants to "resist the twist", he has no trouble skiing arc to arc. Rest assured,,, his intention here was to insert the twist.


Quote:
I guess I am not learned yet?
Stick around..
post #98 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
- As skis and skier separate, skis will lose engagement with the snow, and
become light. When they do, allow the anticipated body to uncoil, skis
twisting to follow the body downhill.
The key being they ALLOW the skis to redirect. Its passive. And in Rocca's case I don't see the redirection you are talking about (passive or not).

I don't consider that passive movement to be a pivot entry (regardless of the very broad definition offered above).

Now this is a pivot:

post #99 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Pivoting simply means to turn the femur in the hip socket. That is it.
Perhaps this is an oversimplification?

So by this definition, every time we change edges we are pivoting. This is true but if we view it in this light, wouldn't there be many axes working in the body simultaneously?

Even though the skis may go cleanly from one edge to the other without any skid, we are pivoting as defined above. We are pivoting the femurs though not necessarily the skis on the snow. The classic definition in my understanding has always been related to the ski/snow interaction.

When we pivot the skis on the snow we may be using a combination of axes not just the femurs, wouldn't you agree?

I thought CSIA grouped movements into something like rotary movements, edging movements, fore/aft movements, and vertical movements?

rotary movements comprising more than one (the femur) axis?


What am I missing here? I have never seen a "pivoted" turn entry look so efficient as the racer in the video clip demonstrates. Are we carrying this newest wcup trend a bit to far in it's application. Are we trying to see something that isn't there or isn't significant in the big mechanics picture?
post #100 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

During the transition, when skis are light, the pivot actually brings them back into alignment with the CM direction of travel
Very interesting way of describing it...and very accurate.

post #101 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
What am I missing here? I have never seen a "pivoted" turn entry look so efficient as the racer above demonstrates. Are we carrying this newest wcup trend a bit to far in it's application. Are we trying to see something that isn't there or isn't significant in the big mechanics picture?
Maybe its a Virtual Pivot?
post #102 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Another nice video that displays well executed pivot/redirections for the majority of his turns. Beautiful skiing. A great display of what these bugga pivot things are suppose to look like at the highest levels of execution.

just wanted to drag this closer to the conversation.



If this skier is demonstrating a "pivoted" turn entry, what would the contrast to this be? This to me still seems to be close to the opposite end of the spectrum of pivoted turn entrys in my mind?

I see lower leg rotation! but not pivoting. I believe there is a difference in emphasis.
post #103 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
The key being they ALLOW the skis to redirect. Its passive.
I chuckled to myself when I used the word "allow" in my post because I knew it would prompt you to leap at the chance to play the passive card. But I couldn't come up with a single word that conveyed the concept of both allowing and controlling,,, so I thought, what the hell, let Max have a little fun.

It's passive in that the body WANTS to realign, but it's active in that the skier controls how much re-alignment needs to be done, how much he/she allows to take place, the manner in which it takes place, and the speed. The skier has compete control over the event. Has to in slalom racing, as precision of movement and execution is crucial for success. Recreational skiing would allow for more passivity.

Think about this. What causes the skis to re-align with the body, rather than the body to re-align with the skis, or to haphazardly meet somewhere in the middle? Passivity would basically make it a crap shoot.


Quote:
I don't consider that to be a pivot entry (regardless of the very broad definition offered above).

Now this is a pivot:

Yeah, that's a beauty alright. Big a$$ pivot. So then,,, how many degrees of redirection needs to take place before you consider a redirection a pivot?
post #104 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Perhaps this is an oversimplification??
Definatley not....but you need to understand Pivoting is only 1 of 5 key building blocks as defined by the CSIA...then when you look at the interaction and application of these building blocks, I think you will see that it gets surprsingly involved.

To give an anlaogy...concrete is just concrete...and by itself pretty simple..but how, when, where you use it can get pretty involved, and create some pretty amazing things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
So by this definition, every time we change edges we are pivoting.
Well in arc to arc skiing it is generally accepted that pivoting is not present. But in all other cases, yes pivoting is present.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
This is true but if we view it in this light, wouldn't there be many axes working in the body simultaneously?
Not sure what you mean here exactley...but yes, there is lots of other things going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Even though the skis may go cleanly from one edge to the other without any skid, we are pivoting as defined above. We are pivoting the femurs though not necessarily the skis on the snow. The classic definition in my understanding has always been related to the ski/snow interaction.
Well, like in the Benni vid, there is no real "skid"....but unless your knees rip off, if you turn the femur the ski turns also, so not sure what you mean, here...but yes, as in some of the turns, the skis can be airborne...or as in some of the turns they can be lightly brushing the surface...pretty hard to do that move, and not have a big skid with the ski loaded...but with the virtual bump, the skis tend to be pretty light in the entry phase of the turn, so it tends not to be an issue...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
When we pivot the skis on the snow we may be using a combination of axes not just the femurs, wouldn't you agree?
Well those are the only 2 I can think of....which other ones did you have in mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I thought CSIA grouped movements into something like rotary movements, edging movements, fore/aft movements, and vertical movements?

rotary movements comprising more than one (the femur) axis?
The CSIA teaching System is based on teaching 5 skills, not movements:

1: Stance and Balance
2: Pivoting
3: Edging
4: Timing and Co-ordination
5: Pressure Control

On the rotary thing...no, the skill only refers to turning the femurs in the hip socket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
What am I missing here? I have never seen a "pivoted" turn entry look so efficient as the racer above demonstrates. Are we carrying this newest wcup trend a bit to far in it's application. Are we trying to see something that isn't there or isn't significant in the big mechanics picture?
Well it is nothing new at all....it was crucial in the old straight ski days...shaped skis allowed the skill of pivoting to be lost, and things went arc to arc for awhile...fortunatley FIS saw this as a detrement to the sport, and increased off sets, set new rules on skis etc...all designed to keep this very real skill of pivoting alive...without pivoting racers would be one trick ponys incappable of skiing anything other then a groomer.
post #105 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
If this skier is demonstrating a "pivoted" turn entry, what would the contrast to this be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU&NR=1
post #106 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
So then,,, how many degrees of redirection needs to take place before you consider a redirection a pivot?
I don't see the redirection you do in the Rocca clip.
post #107 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

Ok, what would you call that? His femurs are rotating! does that mean it is a pivoted turn entry?
post #108 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
just wanted to drag this closer to the conversation.



If this skier is demonstrating a "pivoted" turn entry, what would the contrast to this be? This to me still seems to be close to the opposite end of the spectrum of pivoted turn entrys in my mind?

I see lower leg rotation! but not pivoting. I believe there is a difference in emphasis.
Keep in mind :

One: In much of this video, especially in the first part of that course I would say he is pretty close to arc to arc skiing...a slight pivot is there in a lot/some of those turns...but man, it is slight...it is clearly a few years old...new rules would make that extremely unlikely that he could arc to arc so many turns in a row. But at 37seconds that turn from the left of the screen back to the right, the pivot enty is pretty pronounced.

Two: as the course gets steeper you see the pivot entry..then back to arc to arc...that is great skiing...great example at 37 seconds.


Question: how do you have lower leg rotation, but the upper leg, doesnt? What kind of knees do you have?
post #109 of 269
Quote:
What am I missing here? I have never seen a "pivoted" turn entry look so efficient as the racer in the video clip demonstrates. Are we carrying this newest wcup trend a bit to far in it's application. Are we trying to see something that isn't there or isn't significant in the big mechanics picture?What am I missing here?
Yes, Bud, his execution is magnificient in it's precision and simplicity. That's why I posted it. But are you saying you can't SEE the pivot/redirection at the top of his turns?
post #110 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I don't see the redirection you do in the Rocca clip.
Ahhh, OK. That explains much then.

We need someone to pull a montage out of that video so you can see it better. It can be a little tough seeing them in full speed video for the untrained eye
post #111 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Ok, what would you call that? His femurs are rotating! does that mean it is a pivoted turn entry?
It's arc to arc, Bud. There is no pre engagement redirection
post #112 of 269
So, if the skis leave the snow at edge change it must be a pivoted turn entry? Is this what you are saying? The skier can not simply tip the skis while unweighted to a carving edge? I would think an elite world cup skier could accomplish this?

It would seem too that rotating the femurs does not necessarily "turn" the skis but it does tip them?

Could the axes include the spine too?

Could the turn transition cause the skis to simply tip without redirecting, whether weighted or unweighted, while the kinetic chain up the body rotates above the stable nonpivoting skis? Why would anticipation and release require the skis to redirect. Couldn't the upper body simply counter to minimize or eliminate any pivoting at the feet?
post #113 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by skidude
Well in arc to arc skiing it is generally accepted that pivoting is not present. But in all other cases, yes pivoting is present.
That's funny.

KISS taken to an art form.
post #114 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
So, if the skis leave the snow at edge change it must be a pivoted turn entry? Is this what you are saying? The skier can not simply tip the skis while unweighted to a carving edge? I would think an elite world cup skier could accomplish this?
You're right, they absolutely can,,, wasn't suggesting that at all. Skis definately can leave the ground and come back down without being redirected.
post #115 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Keep in mind :

One: In much of this video, especially in the first part of that course I would say he is pretty close to arc to arc skiing...a slight pivot is there in a lot/some of those turns...but man, it is slight...it is clearly a few years old...new rules would make that extremely unlikely that he could arc to arc so many turns in a row. But at 37seconds that turn from the left of the screen back to the right, the pivot enty is pretty pronounced.

Two: as the course gets steeper you see the pivot entry..then back to arc to arc...that is great skiing...great example at 37 seconds.


Question: how do you have lower leg rotation, but the upper leg, doesnt? What kind of knees do you have?
You know what I meant. Leg rotation, including the femurs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yes, Bud, his execution is magnificient in it's precision and simplicity. That's why I posted it. But are you saying you can't SEE the pivot/redirection at the top of his turns?

Funny, you talk like it is in all his turns yet skidude admits it is only apparent to him in a few turns, which I agree with. I only saw a bit of your pivoting in a turn or two but certainly not the majority of the run.

I think it is a pretty hair splitting stretch myself.

thanks for the education you guys!
post #116 of 269
It would seem too that rotating the femurs does not necessarily "turn" the skis but it does tip them?

Could the axes include the spine too?

Quote:
Could the turn transition cause the skis to simply tip without redirecting, whether weighted or unweighted, while the kinetic chain up the body rotates above the stable nonpivoting skis?
Of course,,, all these options are at our disposal.
post #117 of 269
Admit? Not sure what you mean by that....no doubt thou, that there is a combination of arc to arc and pivot entry....point is...pivot entry is real, and a key part of good/great skiing.

Splitting hairs? Well that depends on your perspective...the fact is often the difference from 1st to 21st is fractions of a second...if you could shave 1/100 of a second off each turn...over 50 gates that is 1/2 a second...in top ski racing, that is huge....fine points of the game matter if you want to step up to the bigs.
post #118 of 269
Quote:
Funny, you talk like it is in all his turns yet skidude admits it is only apparent to him in a few turns, which I agree with. I only saw a bit of your pivoting in a turn or two but certainly not the majority of the run.

I think it is a pretty hair splitting stretch myself.
Didn't say all, I said majority, and I hold to that statement. Like I said, if I had montages, I could point them out more easily. His phenomenal execution masks much of the pivoting actually going on if you don't know what to look for. That's why I said in my original post it was a display of well executed pivots. A model to put on the wall and strive for.
post #119 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
no doubt thou, that there is a combination of arc to arc and pivot entry....point is...pivot entry is real, and a key part of good/great skiing.
Exactly
post #120 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
thanks for the education you guys!
No prob, Bud. Nice chatting with you again.
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