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Using WC race montages to justify technique - Page 9

post #241 of 269
Put these two picktures side by side and tell me if 4ster shows too much forward lean or A-frame!



http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=4B54C5D7
post #242 of 269
You are too nice tdk6, but as the disclaimer stated it is only one point in time. That is why montages or video can tell us so much more.
Thanks,
JF
post #243 of 269
Pallander's outside leg is in a far straighter and stronger position than 4ster's which is kinked inwards a fair bit at the knee to achieve a higher edge angle on the outside ski...this can put a lot of strain on the knee because it twists the leg. I'd think that if Pallander wanted to achieve a higher edge angle he'd do it by dropping his hips further into the turn rather than turning his knee inwards.
post #244 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakfast Chimp View Post
Pallander's outside leg is in a far straighter and stronger position than 4ster's which is kinked inwards a fair bit at the knee to achieve a higher edge angle on the outside ski...this can put a lot of strain on the knee because it twists the leg. I'd think that if Pallander wanted to achieve a higher edge angle he'd do it by dropping his hips further into the turn rather than turning his knee inwards.
I think that you are cheating ..... yes, its all in the link atomicman provided. He keeps his outside leg straight and tilts his inside knee into the turn as he drops his butt 1cm over the snow. I just found it kind of cool that the photo match was so close.
post #245 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
You are too nice tdk6, but as the disclaimer stated it is only one point in time. That is why montages or video can tell us so much more.
Thanks,
JF
Palanders photo is also only one point in time . If it was his worst and your best it still makes your turn great! Remember its an old photo of you and you have changed your style since, right?
post #246 of 269
Heh, yeah. Just read that link now, but I was infact regurgitating what my instructors say to me!
post #247 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breakfast Chimp View Post
Heh, yeah. Just read that link now, but I was infact regurgitating what my instructors say to me!
But you were right on target . Second posting I see.... hope that you will share some more of your knowledge here with us. Wellcome to epic and good to see the european frontier reinforced.
post #248 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Palanders photo is also only one point in time . If it was his worst and your best it still makes your turn great! Remember its an old photo of you and you have changed your style since, right?
Yes, but it has been a long road & a constant work in progress. The biggest change for me recently is getting well balanced boots. The knee thing is slowly disapearing.
That is what I like about this forum, many different eyes & points of view. I rarely disagree with anyone on here, & I try to stay open to everything!
I am off to the mountain now...
Thanks,
JF
post #249 of 269
It is indeed unfair to get picky about one photo and as far as i can get the feel of the photo, 4ster is a pretty good skier.

There has been discussion regarding what the outside knee is doing. My question is, what is causing it?. If you look at both photos, look at the position of both uphill hands, the direction the chest and hips are pointing (the hips are a litter harder to see). In 4ster's photo the right hand is down and back a little too much suggesting some rotation of the upper body. Cut out that rotation and i am sure you would find a photo similar to the racers strong position.
post #250 of 269
A couple of thoughts;

Is 4ster freeskiing or in a race course?

Parallel shins and perfectly matched edge angles and body postion are ideals that we strive to achieve as much as possible but, particularly in a race course where time is of the essence, they take a backseat to getting from point A to B as quickly as possible. I am sure freeskiing Kalle has absolutly spot on technique.

Trying to make gates at speed causes all kinds of contorsions that are not pretty skiing.

Body position vs. edge angles: This is where maybe t 4sters issue is not necessarily alignment. If his edge angles were matched and he had a lot of A-frame I would then look to alignment. In this case he is A framed and his edge angles don't match.

This looks more like how we learned to ski in the old days. Pressure the BTE of the outside ski and pretty much ignored the inside ski. this is a damn hard habit to break.

A great drill is to put your poles away , hands on your knees on a mild slope.

As you proceed, to turn right, push your right knee to the right (now our inside leg)and do nothing with your left(outside) but to let it follow and keep it an equal distance from your inside knee) to turn left push your left knee to the left and so on.


The goal is to start youir turn by rolling your inside knee into the turn and try to keep your shafts parallel. Resist the urge to accentuate the inside edge a of your outside ski and try to keep your knees and equal distance apart.

You won't believe how quickly you will be making very uniformed 2 footed turns.

Is this how you want to ski at all times? NO! But it is one more trick in your bag that you can pull out when the time is appropriate.

If you could purely carve every turn prefectly aligned in a race course, you'd win. But that is just not realistic. Line and tactics come into play.

No one said 4ster was a bad skier, on the contrary it is obvious he can ski, but like the rest of us, there are always idiosyncracies to work on.
post #251 of 269
The problem is trying to emulate WC competition positions at less than world cup speeds. Corrections are needed mid turn to increase angulation, keep skis from diverging too much and a host of other problems caused by skiing too slow.
post #252 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
The problem is trying to emulate WC competition positions at less than world cup speeds. Corrections are needed mid turn to increase angulation, keep skis from diverging too much and a host of other problems caused by skiing too slow.
That should be no problem since the average Epic skier freeskis between 60 & 70 MPH.:
post #253 of 269
A-man, that's the funniest post I've seen in a long time! Well done.
post #254 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
A-man, that's the funniest post I've seen in a long time! Well done.
Thanks, I couldn't help myself!
post #255 of 269
Well I really didn't expect anyone to focus on one photo for so long, but this is great! Thanks. The "hands driving inside knee drill" is one that we use often in learning to create equal edge angles, matching sidecuts & parallel legs (darn, I thought I invented it. A-man must be living in a parallel universe)

As for the photo it was shot on a steep open section at the top of a long 50 some gate slalom course (I'm sure close to 60 MPH ), early morning firm spring snow about 4 years ago. Here is another from the same day lower on the course in a flatter section:



Again, unequal edge angles and slight A-frame. This is something I have worked hard to overcome beginning around the time these photos were taken. I have made a ton of progress , along with improved equipment, (Yes, I do wear a helmet in the course now). As Atomic man said, it is a different animal to take it into the course. Lately, we've had so much powder it is difficult to do any gate training though!

Thanks again for all your feedback.

JF
post #256 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
Well I really didn't expect anyone to focus on one photo for so long, but this is great! Thanks. The "hands driving inside knee drill" is one that we use often in learning to create equal edge angles, matching sidecuts & parallel legs (darn, I thought I invented it. A-man must be living in a parallel universe)

As for the photo it was shot on a steep open section at the top of a long 50 some gate slalom course (I'm sure close to 60 MPH ), early morning firm spring snow about 4 years ago. Here is another from the same day lower on the course in a flatter section:



Again, unequal edge angles and slight A-frame. This is something I have worked hard to overcome beginning around the time these photos were taken. I have made a ton of progress , along with improved equipment, (Yes, I do wear a helmet in the course now). As Atomic man said, it is a different animal to take it into the course. Lately, we've had so much powder it is difficult to do any gate training though!

Thanks again for all your feedback.

JF
Nice photo .
post #257 of 269
Is it me or does many wc skiers go to backseat in transitions?




post #258 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Nice photo .
Thanks, my buddy is a pretty good photographer. I'll tell him the Finns like his work...

JF
post #259 of 269
Grook, great montages! I don't think it's so much back seat as it is letting the skis run between turns. Notice that they seem to maintain some shin pressure throughout, & the bent waist balances out the hips back position.

It's funny though, that if you took just the first frame of Blardone it wouldn't look so good.
JF
post #260 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
Grook, great montages! I don't think it's so much back seat as it is letting the skis run between turns. Notice that they seem to maintain some shin pressure throughout, & the bent waist balances out the hips back position.

It's funny though, that if you took just the first frame of Blardone it wouldn't look so good.
JF
Yeah Blardone really looks like he's pooping What would the advantage be to "let the skis run between turns"? - a quicker transition because you let the power of the ski do it?
post #261 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Yeah Blardone really looks like he's pooping What would the advantage be to "let the skis run between turns"? - a quicker transition because you let the power of the ski do it?
Letting the skis run flat on the bases when possible, is faster than creating friction by edging. Also, I believe overloading the tips of the skis also creates a slowing effect, at least that is my understanding.
Another thing to note in these sequences is that within a few frames the racers have managed to pull their feet back underneath them as they move into the next turn.

JF
post #262 of 269
There is nothing wrong with Blardone.

Remember, it's not the position of the hips, it's the position of the Center of Mass. With arms outstretched and shoulders forwards, his CM is much further forwards than you may think.

Also, remember, that when looking at photos of these athletes, they do not sport the pot belly that many of us do, so their CM can be in a different spot than their hips.
post #263 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by whygimf View Post
Why when watching most instuctors do Railroad tracks does it lack elegance (golf cart-like) and only with very low edge angles in some convoluted bow-legged stance?

Based on how most do it, RRX is only rudimentary carving at best.
Because ski instructors are famous for turning exercises into "The Way to Ski" instead of viewing what they are doing as exercises.

"Skiing from the feet up" is a constant theme I hear from instructors but "Skiing from the feet up" is really only an exercise. If this turns into "the way to ski" the CM ends up nicely stacked over the skis in a quiet static position. This is all fine and dandy until the base of support, the skis are upset by terrain and snow conditions. Then our ski instructor's nice quiet smooth skiing falls all to pieces.
post #264 of 269
Thread Starter 
Harb is an instructor that skis from the feet up. I'd love to lay down arcs like he does.
post #265 of 269
To address the "back seat" issue, yes, those skiers are moving aft at the completion phase of the turn. They do this for two possible reasons. 1) moving aft prevents the tail of the ski from slipping or "washing out" and 2) moving aft takes pressure off the forebody of the ski so it helps release the turn. The move involves sliding the feet forward and using the back of the boot cuff for support and they are only back for a moment before they enter the transition to the next turn.
post #266 of 269
Do you have a montage that shows this sliding of the feet forwards and hanging off the back of the boot cuffs?
post #267 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Harb is an instructor that skis from the feet up. I'd love to lay down arcs like he does.
I ski from the feet up too but its not the only thing involved in unstatic dynamic skiing and therefore, not "The way to ski".
post #268 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I ski from the feet up too but its not the only thing involved in unstatic dynamic skiing and therefore, not "The way to ski".
Of course not, "The way to ski" is ____ (sorry, its a secret and I can't mention it here).
post #269 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Of course not, "The way to ski" is ____ (sorry, its a secret and I can't mention it here).
You know Max I like Harald and think he has contributed an awful lot to this sport.

What he teaches, in my opinion, is different and if adhered to does work well. If mixed with other methods the things HH teaches can produce mixed results.

Me? I gonna use everything I ever learnt to my advantage.
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