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Using WC race montages to justify technique - Page 7

post #181 of 269
sfdean, good stuff. But (nitpicking mode on) you are thinking of Galileo, not Copernicus - for that paraphrased quotation
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Unsourced
post #182 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
sfdean, good stuff. But (nitpicking mode on) you are thinking of Galileo, not Copernicus - for that paraphrased quotation
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Unsourced
Thanks, Martin.

You are correct and I am embarassed. I also, it turns out got the replacement music for the slow motion slalom slightly wrong: It would go unbelievably well to "Carol of the Bells" from the George Winston December album--there's something about the rising then falling line of notes that captures the essence of their attacking tho course, along with music that always reminds me of falling snow and the light graceful air that contrasts with the violence and athleticism.

BTW, great posts SkiRacer55 and Rick--

I liked your KISS post, Rick, about distilling the pivot entry turn technique and skill building for it. That also made me understand how I was off the mark in a post I'd made over on the Waist Skills thread at the MSR site, talking about Borque--

http://forums.modernskiracing.com/in...?showtopic=208


It's not really a lateral explosive hop, so much as he finishes his turn and his skis take a diverging path at a different angle than his upper body, crossing under as he crosses over. Then, having skied into counter, he uses that counter as anticipation and resolves it with the pivot entry.

I'm really ratcheting up the balance training this year and the anaerobic threshold stuff. We'll see whether that pays off in a breakthrough...
post #183 of 269

We already have started training...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfdean View Post
P.S. We have no snow out here in the Sierras. I might have to go to Colorado to ski some gates. When do you guys start training SkiRacer55?
...tomorrow will be my 6th day of free skiing at Loveland with my coaches and teammates. Next weekend, Eldora opens. We'll be running gates with CU the week after that...and, oh, by the way, we're all going to Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder next Wednesday..."New Faces on the World Cup." Oh yeah, I almost forgot...I just got another pair of Atomic 201 Super Gs at pro form price from one of my main suppliers...and, after skiing today, I got in 2 hours of hard tennis with my hitting partner (it's 70 degrees down here in Boulder, even though it's winter in the mountains)...so do you need any more reasons to move to Colorado?
post #184 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...tomorrow will be my 6th day of free skiing at Loveland with my coaches and teammates. Next weekend, Eldora opens. We'll be running gates with CU the week after that...and, oh, by the way, we're all going to Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder next Wednesday..."New Faces on the World Cup." Oh yeah, I almost forgot...I just got another pair of Atomic 201 Super Gs at pro form price from one of my main suppliers...and, after skiing today, I got in 2 hours of hard tennis with my hitting partner (it's 70 degrees down here in Boulder, even though it's winter in the mountains)...so do you need any more reasons to move to Colorado?

SSSSHHHHHHHHH
post #185 of 269
I'm seriously jealous. We are--finally--getting a little moisture tonight headed for the Sierras. Weather.com predicts a whole inch of wet snow up at Tahoe. Which will add to the pre-existing base of zero.

Have fun guys, and make some turns for me. (If you biff, you can say, that was obviously one of Dean's turns....)
post #186 of 269

Definitely snow tonite...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfdean View Post
I'm seriously jealous. We are--finally--getting a little moisture tonight headed for the Sierras. Weather.com predicts a whole inch of wet snow up at Tahoe. Which will add to the pre-existing base of zero.

Have fun guys, and make some turns for me. (If you biff, you can say, that was obviously one of Dean's turns....)
...in the Colorado high country, and today we didn't even care. One of my coaches/teammates and I made 8 (count 'em) full length GS runs on clean snow before it got crowded...then we had some XLNT club sandwiches and hydration for $11.23 (Loveland Passholder discount), and went out and skied some SL drills with some junior teams from Sugar Bowl, Stratton, Vail, Romark, and a few other places. It was a strenous effort....but somebody, has to do it, right? 50/50 possibility, from some of our Home Boys we ran into today, that Eldo will open next weekend...if not...so what? The WC skiers who are not going to Lake Louise will be training at Loveland Basin next weekend, so if we have to, Team Eldo will:

- Go the the Valley early to watch the Best in the World training SL, and then...

- Go up to the Basin to ski with the Best in the World working out on their new GS skis...are you guys Masters Racers?...oh, and you are on the same product...would you like to ski on what Bode is skiing on, and maybe take a run with him?

Hey, it's a tough job, but somebody has to do it...
post #187 of 269
You suck.
post #188 of 269
As I type this, I'm on a business trip to NYC (old Pace salsa commercial: "New York CITY?!") My life is definitely slightly sub-optimal in that regard.

You have fun with the fresh snow, the new skis, and the USST, SkiRacer55. I'll just go talk to a bunch of lawyers, which I'm sure will be nearly as much fun.

At least, anyway, when rounded to the nearest "not exactly"...
post #189 of 269

Okay, guys...

...I promise I will shut up. And if it makes you feel any better, I am at work today, slaving away in the electronic coal mine to pay for all this good fun...
post #190 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by trtaylor57 View Post
I thoroughly enjoy watching men's world cup skiing. I am just a recreational skier, but here are my personal thoughts on photo montage analysis;

I have the Canadian's World 2007 DVD where they show multiple individual training runs and interview the racer on the course. The same DVD also has a lot of the team freeskiing and performing drills. As has been stated previously, that is very good skiing to observe.

Men's World Cup skiing is from a different planet.

Because of their strength and the speeds involved, the women's slalom is likely closest to the skiing most of us do. So I tend to view their montages more seriously.
These are some of the most insightful observations I've read on this forum tr! Even if I did read them a bit late Couldn't agree with you more.

- Fossil
post #191 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Fossil View Post
These are some of the most insightful observations I've read on this forum tr! Even if I did read them a bit late Couldn't agree with you more.

- Fossil
Fossil, just remember that womens WC slalom, similar to the mens, is chock full of pivoted transitions, and thus may not be a great exact model for recreational skiing. Not only is the transition loose, but the rotational positions used to generate that looseness differs from cleaner arc to arc versions. The last thing most recreational skiers need to do is to promote rotary transitions, as this is their pervasive nemesis. What they need is to eliminate that nasty rotary from their transitions.

In my opinion, WC GS skiing on the flatter sections of the course, both men and women, provide the better model. The speeds are lower than on the steeps,,, the courses are set straighter,,, arc to arc is more evident there,,, and the time over which the entire movement sequence takes place is more drawn out than in any slalom turn, and thus easier to see by the untrained eye.

And sure, the speeds are greater than in recreational skiing, but that only affects the forces involved, which in turn affects the forms of angulation used to achieve balance in a clean arc, but the larger sidecuts they use as compared to the average recreational skier tend to somewhat negate those body position differences. And the edge angles do get bigger than those of Joe public too,,, but the important elements of fore/aft and lateral balance at different phases of the turn, the movement patterns of the transition, the rotational positions, and the edging skills used are generally similar and good models for the general skiing world to strive to emulate.
post #192 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
And sure, the speeds are greater than in recreational skiing,
Gee, I thought everyone on Epic freeski in the 60-70MPH range?::

In all seriousness. Excellent post!
post #193 of 269
[quote=Rick;841987]The last thing most recreational skiers need to do is to promote rotary transitions, as this is their pervasive nemesis. What they need is to eliminate that nasty rotary from their transitions.
/quote]

I would disagree with you there. What many recreational skiers need to eliminate is *upper body* rotation--something you don't see much of on the world cup. What you do see is steering at the beginning of the turn (leg rotation) which is necessary when you need to make a tighter turn than the natural steering angle of your ski will allow. This is a valuable and necessary skill for all skiers.

Arcing turns is certainly a skill worth developing, and laying down a set of a RR tracks is a lot of fun, but it isn't particularly functional. You simply cannot ski the whole mountain if all you can do is arc. World cup skiing demonstrates the very highest level of functionality--drawing from all available techniques (or combinations thereof) and utilizing that which is most appropriate to accomplish a turn in the given circumstance.
post #194 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
The last thing most recreational skiers need to do is to promote rotary transitions, as this is their pervasive nemesis. What they need is to eliminate that nasty rotary from their transitions.
I would disagree with you there. What many recreational skiers need to eliminate is *upper body* rotation--something you don't see much of on the world cup. What you do see is steering at the beginning of the turn (leg rotation) which is necessary when you need to make a tighter turn than the natural steering angle of your ski will allow. This is a valuable and necessary skill for all skiers.

Arcing turns is certainly a skill worth developing, and laying down a set of a RR tracks is a lot of fun, but it isn't particularly functional. You simply cannot ski the whole mountain if all you can do is arc. World cup skiing demonstrates the very highest level of functionality--drawing from all available techniques (or combinations thereof) and utilizing that which is most appropriate to accomplish a turn in the given circumstance.
Is steering the skis a turning method that the general public is not doing on a regular basis? : Regardless of whether we are talking upper or lower body rotation - do you see a lack of either in recreational skiing? Steering is a skill that 100% of the general public owns. Whether it is good steering or not is another story, but the fact remains that they all steer, or can steer their turns. How many people do you see in the general population of skiers that can carve a clean turn? Basically, by advocating continued steering you're advocating the general population of skiers to to ski poorly, more effectively.

Rick and I recently had a conversation revolving around steering in recereational skiing. We agreed that a "park and ride" carved turn would be a step in the right direction for the vast majority of skiers who cannot carve a turn at all because it introduces skills that most skiers are not capable of employing. Once a skier reaches a high level, carving skills and movements will almost always preceed the use of rotation as the desired method of turning.

Later

Greg
post #195 of 269
+1 Greg
post #196 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Is steering the skis a turning method that the general public is not doing on a regular basis? : Regardless of whether we are talking upper or lower body rotation - do you see a lack of either in recreational skiing? Steering is a skill that 100% of the general public owns. Whether it is good steering or not is another story, but the fact remains that they all steer, or can steer their turns. How many people do you see in the general population of skiers that can carve a clean turn? Basically, by advocating continued steering you're advocating the general population of skiers to to ski poorly, more effectively.

Rick and I recently had a conversation revolving around steering in recereational skiing. We agreed that a "park and ride" carved turn would be a step in the right direction for the vast majority of skiers who cannot carve a turn at all because it introduces skills that most skiers are not capable of employing. Once a skier reaches a high level, carving skills and movements will almost always preceed the use of rotation as the desired method of turning.

Later

Greg
I'm not advocating that people shouldn't learn how to carve (or arc); I'm simply pointing out that the majority of the turns we make (whether on the race course or on the mountain) must start with steering because the requirements of where we need to go are inside of our skis natural turning radius. So I simply disagree with the notion that, when looking at world cup montages, we should discount turns that are started through steering.

Certainly, if you are trying to learn how to arc, you should focus on the turns that are actually arced. On the other hand, if you are trying to improve your technique generally, you need to consider the totality of the run and what the racer was trying to accomplish in each turn.

I understand what you are saying about "park and ride". It is a necessary starting point to carving the top of a turn which is a skill every expert skier must have. OTOH arced turns of any variety are fairly limiting. Sure you can control your turn radius with fore and aft, but there are limits. Arced turns are simply not an effective choice for a great deal of skiing that we do. Which is why most world cup turns start with steering (not "carving skills and movements").
post #197 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
I'm not advocating that people shouldn't learn how to carve (or arc); I'm simply pointing out that the majority of the turns we make (whether on the race course or on the mountain) must start with steering because the requirements of where we need to go are inside of our skis natural turning radius...

...Arced turns are simply not an effective choice for a great deal of skiing that we do. Which is why most world cup turns start with steering (not "carving skills and movements").
How confident are you in those statements?
post #198 of 269
Well, you can go out on Ron LeMaster's site and see a ton of steering in the WC montages. After all, its all about turn radius right? I don't know what you ride, but my Mythic Riders have a 21 meter turn radius. Most trees I ski don't give me 21 meters. Nor do many of the chutes I'm in (or at least if I get my radius, I don't think of it as a chute). I'm not good enough to do GS turns in bumps, so I'm inside my radius there....

I should qualify too--arced turns work well anytime you have your turn radius. So if you only want to ski where you can arc, you obviously don't need any other technique. My assumption though is that most people would like to be able to ski the whole mountain. So they are going to need a broader skill set to get them into places where arcing just isn't going to work.
post #199 of 269
Gotta disagree that 100% of the public owns steering. Quickly twisting the skis sideways somehow, yes, but actually steering? no.

Why? Poor fundamentals.

It is irrelevant to argue about which technique the public ought to be taught when their fundamental movements and skills are inadequate to perform them anyway. Ski teaching should embrace a set of fundamental movements ( that exemplify different skills ) and a fundamental approach to skiing -- one that is technique independent.
post #200 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Gotta disagree that 100% of the public owns steering. Quickly twisting the skis sideways somehow, yes, but actually steering? no.

Why? Poor fundamentals.
IMO - that is simply arguing semantics. How do you twist your skis sideways? You steer. Saying that it is not steering merely because it is not "proper" steering is like saying that the guy in the low edge angle park and ride carve is not carving. He might be carving terribly, but he is carving. The same goes for the steering general public. It isn't "good" steering, but twisting the skis sideways is still steering the skis - just at a pathetically low level.

Later

Greg
post #201 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
Well, you can go out on Ron LeMaster's site and see a ton of steering in the WC montages. After all, its all about turn radius right? I don't know what you ride, but my Mythic Riders have a 21 meter turn radius. Most trees I ski don't give me 21 meters. Nor do many of the chutes I'm in (or at least if I get my radius, I don't think of it as a chute). I'm not good enough to do GS turns in bumps, so I'm inside my radius there....

I should qualify too--arced turns work well anytime you have your turn radius. So if you only want to ski where you can arc, you obviously don't need any other technique. My assumption though is that most people would like to be able to ski the whole mountain. So they are going to need a broader skill set to get them into places where arcing just isn't going to work.
You're missing the point. You didn't see anywhere in my post where I said there was or was not any steering going on in WC turns. I said that carving preceeds steering - meaning carving comes first, not steering. Also, most often if there is steering going on in a race course it is being applied to skis that are already on their edges and engaged (or about to be engaged) in a carve. If you learned to carve properly do you think that somehow you would forget how to steer your turns as you were doing before you learned to carve? There is no reason to reward steered turns as employed by the general public with a pat on the back. There is a huge disconnect between the steering at the level you're talking about and the pivoting that WC skiers employ (or appear to employ) in a race course. The two cannot even be compared.

Until there is evidence that the gross population of recreational skiers can lay out cleanly scribed non park and ride arcs on groomed terrain while also having no idea how to steer their skis I think it is safe to say that the skills that the general population of skiing is lacking and definicient in are NOT rotary skills. Feel free to disagree with that but proof will always show in the skiing that is produced.

Later

Greg
post #202 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
IMO - that is simply arguing semantics. How do you twist your skis sideways? You steer. Saying that it is not steering merely because it is not "proper" steering is like saying that the guy in the low edge angle park and ride carve is not carving. He might be carving terribly, but he is carving. The same goes for the steering general public. It isn't "good" steering, but twisting the skis sideways is still steering the skis - just at a pathetically low level.

Later

Greg
You make an interesting point here Greg. Remember what the argument was all about before we got our carving skis? Exactly; it was all about how we skidded our skis. Not if we did or not because we all did, it was just a matter of how we did it, why and when. The current WC GS pivotted turn entryes are a high end WC manuver but its still plain old skidding in my book. Start the turn by rotating your hips out in the turn to flatten those edges and skidd sideways. It will scrubb off some speed and rederect your skis. Thats what the general public do in every turn they make out on the mountain. Me too when I find it to be a good option.
post #203 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
I I'm simply pointing out that the majority of the turns we make (whether on the race course or on the mountain) must start with steering because the requirements of where we need to go are inside of our skis natural turning radius.
When skiing on hardpack, it's quite easy to arc a turn that's smaller than your sidecut radius. All you have to do is tip your skis; the radius of the turn carved is equal to the sidecut radius times the cosine of the angle to which you have tipped your skis.

The skill to be developed is how to tip the skis to a big enough angle quickly enough and smoothly enough while keeping the edges pressed into the ice.
post #204 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
IMO - that is simply arguing semantics. How do you twist your skis sideways? You steer. Saying that it is not steering merely because it is not "proper" steering is like saying that the guy in the low edge angle park and ride carve is not carving. He might be carving terribly, but he is carving. The same goes for the steering general public. It isn't "good" steering, but twisting the skis sideways is still steering the skis - just at a pathetically low level.
I am sorry you think that throwing the skis sideways is steering. Next time you are on the hill, note which skiers are redirecting their skis with simple femoral rotation, and which ones are rotating their entire bodies.

The public does not own steering by any stretch of the imagination. They'll push the skis to the side,twist them as if the ski had actually turned and wait for te braking effect to change direction, but steering?

Non mon amis, not remotely close.

Steering/pivotting is not a "technique" it is a fundamental movement. It is a movement that the bulk of the public cannot do, and we are foolish to ignore that.

FYI: Pivotting is one of the CSIA's 5 skills. Skills are not techniques. Techniques are created by application of all of the skills.

I better be careful here. Folks might think I'm promoting skills now...What I am promoting is not to put the cart before the horse -- don't teach techniques that cannot be supported by the students fundamentals.

For the most part, that is where steering loses -- it is harder than rolling a ski to an edge.
post #205 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Steering/pivotting is not a "technique" it is a fundamental movement. It is a movement that the bulk of the public cannot do, and we are foolish to ignore that.
Correct me if Im wrong but is steering/pivotting causing a skid? In this case a steering/pivotting movement is used to cause a skid. What exatly is a steering/pivotting movement then? Is that not rotating the lower part of the body one way while the upper part rotates the other way? Would that not be rotating in some whay?

To me the above statement also indicates that the bulk of the public cannot ski properly! Probably true but still an interesting statement....
post #206 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
When skiing on hardpack, it's quite easy to arc a turn that's smaller than your sidecut radius. All you have to do is tip your skis; the radius of the turn carved is equal to the sidecut radius times the cosine of the angle to which you have tipped your skis.

The skill to be developed is how to tip the skis to a big enough angle quickly enough and smoothly enough while keeping the edges pressed into the ice.
You are talking about hardpack and ice and even on hardpack and ice its impossible to arc the skis all the time, you would be going too fast. Also speed has a lot to do with how tight you can turn. There is a sweet spot where the ski turns to its maximum and if you increase speed your turn radius will increase. If you decrease speed you will not be able to bend the ski enough. However, this is a silly discussion since you cannot arc all the time. You need to be able to skid as well. In powder and in offpist skiing arcing is not possible. Also in bumps its not possible. Not a very good all mountain skill, arcing that is. Even WC downhill skiers need to throw their skis into a speed scrubbing skidd at the end of each run.
post #207 of 269

True story...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
You are talking about hardpack and ice and even on hardpack and ice its impossible to arc the skis all the time, you would be going too fast. Also speed has a lot to do with how tight you can turn. There is a sweet spot where the ski turns to its maximum and if you increase speed your turn radius will increase. If you decrease speed you will not be able to bend the ski enough. However, this is a silly discussion since you cannot arc all the time. You need to be able to skid as well. In powder and in offpist skiing arcing is not possible. Also in bumps its not possible. Not a very good all mountain skill, arcing that is. Even WC downhill skiers need to throw their skis into a speed scrubbing skidd at the end of each run.
...see Ron LeMaster's latest article in the current Ski Racing...
post #208 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...see Ron LeMaster's latest article in the current Ski Racing...
So you can arc a super stiff 195cm r=27m GS to lets say 1m turn radius at 5mph in soft powder on bumps because that could be a real life situation for somebody sometime.... where can I get the mag or is there a online version?
post #209 of 269
Tdk,
I'm not saying skills other than arcing are not useful to have out on the ski hill. I'm saying those other skills are not the ones that seem to be lacking as much in most recreational skiers I see out on the hills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Is steering the skis a turning method that the general public is not doing on a regular basis? : Regardless of whether we are talking upper or lower body rotation - do you see a lack of either in recreational skiing? Steering is a skill that 100% of the general public owns. Whether it is good steering or not is another story, but the fact remains that they all steer, or can steer their turns. How many people do you see in the general population of skiers that can carve a clean turn? Basically, by advocating continued steering you're advocating the general population of skiers to to ski poorly, more effectively.

Rick and I recently had a conversation revolving around steering in recereational skiing. We agreed that a "park and ride" carved turn would be a step in the right direction for the vast majority of skiers who cannot carve a turn at all because it introduces skills that most skiers are not capable of employing. Once a skier reaches a high level, carving skills and movements will almost always preceed the use of rotation as the desired method of turning.

Later

Greg
I tend to agree with Greg and Rick.
post #210 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Tdk,
I'm not saying skills other than arcing are not useful to have out on the ski hill. I'm saying those other skills are not the ones that seem to be lacking as much in most recreational skiers I see out on the hills.
But it doesent make much sence because before we had arcing we still had lacking skills! There is still a proper and a falce way of performing the other skills you are refering to, or? IMHO offcourse....
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