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Transition, float, and movement from one edge to another - Page 3

post #61 of 75
u sher du!
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Sorry, you will never see me pausing. It is bad movement. I'm not Tai Chiing, I am skiing, which involves dynamic balance.

I won't let the door hit me on the way out...
Well Bud, too bad you feel that way. As an exercise it can be good. Why confuse how we train with the end product? Further the methods of teaching individual sports don't need to be exclusive of each other. Much can be learned by looking outside of a respective sport for understanding and methods. I was actually introduced to this exercise by an NRM examiner.
post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I was only stating my opinion! and I hold to it. I do not teach pauses in skiing SORRY.
You're looking at this wrong, Bud. It's not teaching a pause,,, it's using a pause to teach arc to arc. It's like RicB says, it's a means to an end. A tool to turn on the light for a student,,, to break an ingrained movement pattern that is strongly imbedded in the VAST majority of all recreational skiers.

No need to fear the pause will stick, you don't use if for that long,,, just long enough to allow a student to experience a new sensation. After that, the pause can be quickly removed, and many different speeds of transition can be explored and developed. The pause becomes just a flash in the pan piece of history quickly forgotten.

I find this tool works very well, and remember, arc to arc is my business. Sounds like RicB has had success too,,, and Skidude too,,, and Pierre in a modified version,,, and Heluva has seen the results first hand. You're of course free to reject it hands down, but considering the multiple voices of good experience and success with it being sounded here, might it be worth a second look?

And I do like your straight run on flat terrain suggestion. I use that too, as an early stepping stone in many various skill development situations.
post #64 of 75
Rick, Oh, I have seen your exercise demonstrated many times in my experience and I never cared for it and have always used other methods to address the same issues with great success myself. Just not a fan of breaking flow to teach flow.

Ricb,
I agree Tai Chi has many great things to offer a skier and one of my favorite books when I began teaching and was absorbing all I could, was "Inner Skiing" by Timothy Galloway. However, a "pause" during Tai Chi exercises while standing in a stationary position does not transfer well to a moving, dynamic balance sport IMO. This is what I was eluding to. Nothing against the merits of Tai Chi.
post #65 of 75
I don't quite understand why you need to do anything different than just rolling off one set of edges in a smooth continuous move that continues rolling onto the other set of edges without interruption, but then again I haven't taught a lot of skiers.

Spending 2 or three seconds going straight on flat shaped skis, it seems to me, would have my edges trying to interact with the dozens of small surface irregularities that I would encounter in 100 feet of hill, not really helpful.
post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Rick, Oh, I have seen your exercise demonstrated many times in my experience and I never cared for it and have always used other methods to address the same issues with great success myself. Just not a fan of breaking flow to teach flow.
Bud, your concerns about flow disruption during this drill are much to do about nothing. You can't disrupt something that doesn't exist, and such is the case with skiers who have a big rotary move at the beginning of their turns. Before efficient arc to arc flow can be built, the rotary has to go, and it can be a tough muscle memory habit to break. The pause is one good method of breaking the habit. Once broken, basic flow is a piece of cake that just kind of happens because the impediment to it has been removed.

I'm glad you have ways to rid the rotary too. So many tail pushers on the slopes,,, so little time.
post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I don't quite understand why you need to do anything different than just rolling off one set of edges in a smooth continuous move that continues rolling onto the other set of edges without interruption, but then again I haven't taught a lot of skiers.
Multiple years doing the exact opposite, ingrained in the students movement patterns. Can be a tough nut to crack. But you wouldn't relate to that,,,, you we're arc'in when arc'in wasn't cool.
post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Bud, your concerns about flow disruption during this drill are much to do about nothing. You can't disrupt something that doesn't exist, and such is the case with skiers who have a big rotary move at the beginning of their turns. Before efficient arc to arc flow can be built, the rotary has to go, and it can be a tough muscle memory habit to break. The pause is one good method of breaking the habit. Once broken, basic flow is a piece of cake that just kind of happens because the impediment to it has been removed

Let me ask, why in your infinite experience, do skiers tend to over pivot at initiation?
What is the cause in the cause and affect senerio?
What kind of terrain do you use for your "pause" progression?
What angle to the fall line do you have them "pause"?
post #69 of 75
Let me ask, why in your infinite experience, do skiers tend to over pivot at initiation?

Ah, yes, good question grasshopper. Why does the snake not dance under that stars?

The snake has no legs,,, the new skier has limited skills.

Execution options are limited early on in the learning cycle. Combined with fear of falline, unrefined pivots and tail pushes tend to become the transition of choice. If not supplanted with more refined transition options, these lower level turn entries become habitual movement patterns.

Even when steering skills become refined, and turn entries become less pushy/pivoty, it's still a rotary entry that continues to become embedded as a default movement pattern. When carving is learned, these long practiced default rotary turn entries can, and often do, creep in to the skiers between carved turn transitions.

Shedding them can be difficult because of the stubborn habitual nature of athletic movement, because of a lack of skills in other technical areas (such as balance) to support a new movement pattern, and because of fear of the upside down sensation of engaging a carve while the skis are still directed across the falline.


What is the cause in the cause and affect senerio?

I think I just answered that. The undesired movements exhibited, regardless of the exact nature, are usually a byproduct of skier history issues such as those mentioned above, combined with deficits in skills that enable desirable movement replacement options. Old habits need to be discarded, and skills need to be developed that allow the skier to cut the movement clutter, and replace it with a simpler, more efficient, and more effective version.


What kind of terrain do you use for your "pause" progression?

Very flat groomed


What angle to the fall line do you have them "pause"?

Start off slight. Perhaps 30 degrees? Progress up from there. Start with a single transition,,, check tracks. Connect multiple transitions after success. Dump the pause as soon as it's served it's purpose. Keep progressing in difficulty, both in pitch and falline angle. Work on different speed rates of edge change. Each progressive step locks in the clean entry sensation and movement pattern more and more.
post #70 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Even when steering skills become refined, and turn entries become less pushy/pivoty, it's still a rotary entry that continues to become embedded as a default movement pattern. When carving is learned, these long practiced default rotary turn entries can, and often do, creep in to the skiers between carved turn transitions.
This is can be seen in many (perhaps the majority) of advanced skiers.
post #71 of 75
Even when the secondary femur rotation that accompanies tipping is refined, that rotation can become active and produce pivot entries in carve turn transitions. It is especially clear in unweighted turn entries.
post #72 of 75
Good answer Richard!

Just what I expected to hear from a competent coach. We pretty much agree here and use pretty much the same terrain and same approach except for one tiny thing..... the "pause".

I feel that most times the over zealous use of a pivoted turn entry stems from a current or past issue of fear of the fall line. The skier learned early on to compensate for this acceleration into the fall line by pivoting the skis quickly to find the brake pedal and ease their anxiety. Whether the fear still exists or not the movements as mentioned are ingrained in the motor memory (habitual).

If you go back and read my posts you will see this is the cause I am aiming at to get them comfortable with an offensive attitude and the acceleration of being patient before the fall line! You are doing the same thing. I just fail to see where having a skier pause or go straight (especially with shaped skis) is productive to achieve our goal. By pausing (and I am using your term in your context here) We must first move our cm enough to release the edges then STOP that movement to pause, then begin to move again into the inside of the turn. It would seem simply staying close to the fall line on easy green terrain and doing RR track turns would create fluid movements, familiarize the skier with edge to edge tipping and the sensations of acceleration. As the turns develop the skier will seek the speed knowing the turn completion and shaping will get them the control they seek and develop the confidence to commit the the edge early rather than rely on a pivot. I think the key is getting them comfortable carrying MOMENTUM into the top of the turn and getting comfortable with the security of early edge engagement and commitment to it early.

So again, what I am saying is pausing seems to be counterproductive in reaching the goal of arc to arc skiing. It just puts a speed bump in the progression and only serves to challenge dynamic balance more.

Now if your goal is to challenge balance and make the skier overcome the challenges of balancing at a tangent to the fall line, while going straight on shaped skis, then it makes sense to pause. But to develop arc to arc carving doesn't help. Im my simple mind.
post #73 of 75
I can see where Max501 has a good point here! If we take a skier and get them comfortable with carrying a little momentum into the turn initiation and teach them to use a bit of counter movements to balance on the new edges the pivots will disappear.

When skiers who are comfortable with skiing arc to arc do this task, we may feel a bit of what could be construed as a pause but in fact is the tipping or flowing with the pull of gravity (kinda freefalling sensation) into the turn. There is no actual pause rather a momentary weightless sensation that could be interpreted as a pause.
post #74 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
I just fail to see where having a skier pause or go straight (especially with shaped skis) is productive to achieve our goal. By pausing (and I am using your term in your context here) We must first move our cm enough to release the edges then STOP that movement to pause, then begin to move again into the inside of the turn.
Bud, the philosophy I was employing when I first started using this training tool to rid the pushy turn entries was that I believed the rotary transition my students were using was a muscle memory embedded movement sequence, that once launched, followed through to a conclusion with a will of it's own. I believed by inserting the "stop" into that movement pattern I would be able to disrupt the nature of the old default movement pattern by forcing a different desired outcome, that being getting to the stop point and stopping successfully, which can't be done if rotary is included. I thought from there they'd be able to mentally regroup and proceed to replicate the sensation of rolling into a nice carved turn from flat as we had already successfully learned via single turns earlier. Once that two step process, (turn release to stop, and stop to clean initiation) was successfully accomplished, and the skier had enjoyed their first taste of a clean arc to arc initiation, I would just combine the 2 part transition into a clean arc to arc movement pattern. I was pleased when I found it worked quite well.

But like I said, it's only one arrow in the quiver of options good pros should have at the ready to rid the world of ruddy rotary. May we both reign triumphant in our wager of this war.
post #75 of 75
Good enough!

Now I understand your reasoning a bit clearer.

thanks!
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