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methods 301 for the no-fall zone - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Thread Starter 

old bike part conversion concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
T


[back on topic]

Paul - A whippet is attached to the grip of the ski pole by sliding into the shaft. It is indeed removable, but it's a self-arrest tool, so normally it's kept in there.
I've got an idea for the eternally broke big as- risk taker. You get some old bar extensions from a trashed mountain bike, the kind that give you the more up and curved in position for your hands at the end of the bars, you cut off the tips at a wicked 20 degree acute angle and sharpen the suckers. Provided the screw clamp is versatile enough to go around your grips, you are good to go. just having fun, actually, no need to comment.
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
Lot's of fun stuff out there inbetween RT and California chute when leaving from Kirkwood eh? Remember this line in the distance at all? This is from the top of Melissa Cory peak...backside of RT and 4th of July peak are just out of the photo to lookers left..

I recognize it, but don't know the name.

Yeah, the backside of cali chutes is the shizz.
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

What adjustments, emotionally, mentally, techniques and methods do you make when skiing in the n0-fall zone? I have one to start it off, some information that truly could save a life. The pitch is steep, the snow is firm, there is sh=t below, trees, rocks, small cliffs. You are standing at the top and more than a little puckered. there are no guarantees here, except that you are going to be relying on yourself. This is one thing you can do before dropping in. Take your pole straps off. Make this plan. If you fall (the down side of this is that you have to let that thought into your mind to prepare for the possibility and have a method to save yourself), if you fall you are going to toss one pole away immediately. then you are going to move both of your hands down the shaft of the remaining pole, all the way down until they are strongly gripping the shaft with the heel of your hand on top of the basket. then you are going to stab the pole into the ice, hard, and keep it in the ice as deeply as you can to begin a self-arrest and get your skis to swing around under your body mass instead of dragging above you keeping you in that totally helpless head first position. then dig that pole tip hard and try to get an edge in. this all takes time, but on a good sliding fall, that is one thing you have, time. why, I was once on a long slide toward the trees below (my pole straps were on) and I had time to talk to myself: "sh-t, no helmet, crap, oh man, it won't matter, you are gonna' break your neck anyhow." I wear a helmet now and am aware that one can slide pretty freakin' fast in 8" of powder as well as firm snow.


I understand your thinking here, but one of the greats, Bob Rotella, would have serious beef with this.
 

 

post #34 of 53
Thread Starter 

OK, fine, who is Rotella, what's his renown and expertise, and what part is he likely to have a "beef" with, actually, do you have a "beef" with? or you can just be contrary and vague

the method works, and sometimes, I'm thinking resort skiing, it's all you have going. serious climbing, AT, one is likely to have a whippet or ice axe.

where'd you find this and why? are you aware of context? at the time there was traversing 101 going around, so it was a fun amplification of his idea.

google only has a golfer....did I miss your play on words or something about a shaft that crosses between sports?haha

 

post #35 of 53

He works on the mental game of maaaany great champions in many different sports.  He does focus on golf, and golf is not a game of perfect is a wonderful book, but it applies to all high pressure situations.  Essentially, if you are not solely focused on the GOAL and the goal only, other things will happen to you.  In golf, if you are say, hitting right of a lake, the chances of you going in the lake are much, much higher than if you are aiming at the flag stick.  Essentially, if you let other thoughts enter your mind, you are more likely to falter in that direction.  What you should do is prepare as much as you can (also a John Wooden school of thought), then when you get to a no fall zone, you need to focus on the goal and the goal only, and in the case that something else does happen, your preparation will take over.  In essence Bob Rotella is the best person in the world at getting people to fully, 100% commit to the task at hand.

post #36 of 53
Thread Starter 

cool, I've followed that same idea. at the beginning of this thread I even mention the downside of having to let the thought of the sliding fall into your mind. you just have to be good enough to have that thought exist and still ski beyond it. my idea that is the same as Rotella's thesis, is that fear is a distraction. I didn't connect it to a bigger context like he did, but same idea. so if fear is a distraction, you can't have it when you need absolute focus. keeping concentrated on the object is visualized by looking straight down the fall line, way down the fall line, and not to the sides where there are cliff faces and rocks. it's what you said.

 

looked at that last post, kinda scratchy for no reason

post #37 of 53

I review things like fall/arrest techniques at the beginning of the season and sometimes as I drive to ski in the morning  and try to always be prepared. But I am with Rotella (and both of you). If I was at the top of a run planning my fall, I would ski it some other day. For me, the key to skiing a no fall zone is being able to muster the courage to ski it aggressively. If I get defensive thoughts, I ski something easier.

post #38 of 53
Thread Starter 

 not a negative thought. a positive safety measure is all.  If it's part of the technique, you can just do it as routine and habit.you take the straps off to ski the trees, so it's the same thing.


Edited by davluri - 11/17/11 at 7:44am
post #39 of 53

Yup.  And in all fairness, I read the first post and just replied to that figuring Rotella most likely hadn't been mentioned.

post #40 of 53
Thread Starter 

works for me.

a good quote from his philosophy that pertains to fear would be very interesting. I think most skiers struggle with fear in serious terrain, and have fewer tools to deal with fear than technique.

post #41 of 53

"Athletes must understand that it is impossible to be courageous if at first you are not afraid.  Fear is a natural and healthy human emotion, experienced at times by all competitors.  So fear does not separate athletes from one another.  Courage, which is the willingness and the ability to feel the fear, face it, and enjoy the challenge of attacking fear and busting through it in important competitions, is what separates champions from the others who compete."

post #42 of 53
Thread Starter 

once conditions sucked on a hard line. I dropped in and messed it up, missing a turn and accelerating crazy fast and just riding it out to the bottom. when I stopped I could not remember where I turned or how I skied the line. it was weird. I had blacked out while skiing, due to the fear. not my best momenteek.gif.

thx, nice one. courage, working with fear.

post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

 not a negative thought. a positive safety measure is all.  If it's part of the technique, you can just do it as routine and habit.you take the straps off to ski the trees, so it's the same thing.

 

I agree 100% the more you practice doing the necessary and beneficial things, the more ingrained they become so that you are prepared for a difficult challenge without focusing on the negative. At the top of steep runs, I side slip a few feet as I get my thoughts in order.  I am not planning to side slip down the run, but it is a little preparation and physical cue (I don't think about this) that I have a tool for getting out of trouble if I need it so I can approach the run with more confidence. Your pole straps could be the same kind of thing for you. Would it make more sense to do just 1 though?

 

I also found what I thought was an on target quote:
 

“Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.”
John Wooden

post #44 of 53

So aside from the self-arrests, what do you guys think of to get yourself really in the mental space to be in that "no-fall zone". For me, its all about the plan. I know exactly what my ability is, and where I need to make my turns to be safe. And as long as those 2 overlap, I feel good. But its very important to have every turn visualized at the exact places I want to make them.

post #45 of 53

So aside from the self-arrests, what do you guys think of to get yourself really in the mental space to be in that "no-fall zone". For me, its all about the plan. I know exactly what my ability is, and where I need to make my turns to be safe. And as long as those 2 overlap, I feel good. But its very important to have every turn visualized at the exact places I want to make them.

post #46 of 53

I don't plan each turn just the first couple. However well you look things are different once you are there I find. Faster, slower, icier, less icy, bumpier... I just try to go aggressively, have high awareness, and respond to the situation as I feel it.

post #47 of 53
Thread Starter 

A plan is a good thing. but you ask and negate the idea. there is no safe place to make your turns if you fall. thus the title. (reply to #44)

 

Getting into the right mental space is part of skiing the no-fall zone. through the years, I have had various sort of mantras that I say to myself before starting into something challenging. usually involving the main issue in my skiing or the most significant factor in skiing the line, like last year: soft edges; two years ago: compact  before that: look down the hill  before that: flashlight and so on through my skiing days, depending on the state of my skiing.

post #48 of 53

All this talk about self arrest as an effective option... the recent deaths of several pro big mountain skiers tells me that a whippet isn't a realistic option in truly 'no fall' territory. I think what we're really talking about is turns on exposed terrain/painful-fall/possibly-a-trip-in-the-sled down terrain where in fact, there is some margin for error unless we're talking about the North face of the Aguille de Midi or the like. 

post #49 of 53
Thread Starter 

 the title of the thread refers to true no-fall zones, slide for life scenarios, you fall you mos' likely die realizations, trees and rocks 200 meters below 40 degree slopes of firm snow or ice. But if you slide your job is to stop, regardless of the terrain, so he arrest techniques can be used by anyone.

 

I think the whippet is an effective tool, just a little risky in a lift line, ha. you need something beside gloved hands to be able to affect your orientation to gravity in a sliding fall. I would not ski a firm dogleg couloir  without some serious tools and skills.

 

I don't think Mt. Blanc has any exclusive claim to serious exposure.

 

BP, if you're still around, isn't it very likely in many situations a person will miss that correct position for the leveraged pole and just extend their arms over their head and drag the tip of the pole? This may swing your feet down for stopping with ski edges or boot toes.


Edited by davluri - 11/18/11 at 5:40pm
post #50 of 53


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davluri View Post

 

I don't think Mt. Blanc has any exclusive claim to serious exposure; every major ski area in the U.S. west has real present dangers in certain conditions.

 

 



Well yes, this is true, but IMH experience, the exposure in many areas in Europe is a magnitude higher than pretty much anything inbounds in the US. And IMHO, whippets have absolutely no place inbounds at any ski area. If you're hiking out, pack it until you're outside the gate.

post #51 of 53
Thread Starter 

didn't I say that about whippets in the lift line? that was my way of saying they work in some situations.

 

deleted


Edited by davluri - 11/18/11 at 5:41pm
post #52 of 53

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from. Just saying that on refrozen days and rock hard conditions where serious slides are a real consequence of a fall, the better part of valor is to just not ski 'no-fall' stuff at all.  I've also seen a couple of people skiing down into crowded groomer terrain with whippets, presumably after skiing something that might call for them, and patrollers stopping the skiers. Skiing exposed lines in good snow (soft, corn, stable powder, etc... is a whole different animal. What does one do to prepare? Just think about all the other lines you've skied over time that are the same angle and condition, tell yourself you've done it just fine before, dial in, keep the show square to the fall line, and go. But it's your thread, so advise and anecdote as you see fit. No problems with your opinion at all on this side of the interweb.

post #53 of 53
Thread Starter 

Accurate assessment and good judgement are more valuable than a whippet for sure.  icon14.gif  but they are a great tool.

 

 

 


Edited by davluri - 11/18/11 at 5:31pm
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