EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 12  

post #331 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Are you saying that Bode purposely ended up on both medial edges through the transition?
I'm saying his focus was on the development of edge engagement and turn initiation on the uphill (old inside, new outside) ski, and at that particular moment lack of edge angle continuity in the downhill (new inside) ski is inconsequential. The success of the turn makes that statement undeniably true. Your job as a student of the sport is not to debate the obviously undebatable, but to come to understand the technical elements that make the approach work.
post #332 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
I am scared to jump into this thread....but,

Parrellel shins is only a reference to "not A-Frameing"....as instructor/coaches, it is generally accepted that it is prefreable to tell people what to strive for, rather then what not to strive for....hence Parrallel Shins, is preferable to A-Frame.

The reason is, parrallel shins provide a stronger biomechancial position then A-Frame, parrallel shins allow a skier to have greater choice over inside ski/outside ski weight distribution and (partly as a consequence of above) parrallel shins also allow the inside ski to carve more effectivley then A-Frame.

"Perfectly Parallel Shins" is really only a goal for those seeking to do "Instructor Style Demos"....a few degrees either way as shown by Bode is more of real world stuff....keep in mind thou, that those edge angles make it harder for him.....very few people get those angles, hence perfectley parallel shins is more practical and possible for Instructor types.
All true, Dude. The trouble comes when young/new pros get so tunnel visioned on promoting demo image ideals, that inconsequential variations capture their attention, and their student's more crucial technical deficit issues go ignored. You can see such happenings reflected in the MA's and advice dished out on forums such as this all the time. I'm sure you've noticed.
post #333 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I started this thread to analyze the following statement:

Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first.
Just for the record, here is the complete statement, which has quite a different meaning from the partial quote taken out of context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first. Both need to work together if you are trying to be simultaneous. The only way to do this is by moving both feet or the pelvis. Your choice but if you move one leg befor the other you cannot by definition be simultaneous...
post #334 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto View Post
Just for the record, here is the complete statement, which has quite a different meaning from the partial quote taken out of context.
The meaning looks the same to me. The leading sentence says it all.
post #335 of 348
Oh,,,, and just noticed. HAPPY BIRTHDAY SKIDUDE.
post #336 of 348
Thanks.
post #337 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I'm saying his focus was on the development of edge engagement and turn initiation on the uphill (old inside, new outside) ski, and at that particular moment lack of edge angle continuity in the downhill (new inside) ski is inconsequential. The success of the turn makes that statement undeniably true. Your job as a student of the sport is not to debate the obviously undebatable, but to come to understand the technical elements that make the approach work.
Sounds like a reasonable interpretation of that sequence.
post #338 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Very true. It might be worthwhile exploring those a bit, as the theoretical great importance of parallel angles/shins many pros accept and embrace these days seems to only recognize one.




Again, true. Yet, in contrast to that idea, we are frequently presented with examples of high level skiing by some of the best in the world, like this one:
http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/bode-bc-2006-gs-2.html
In which Bode's old inside (uphill) ski/leg leads the tipping, and equal edge angles never appear through an entire well executed turn.

Once lateral CM movement blockage issues are overcome, it can be valuable for pros to understand what's happening in montages like this, and the alternative methods being used to keep the skis turning in functional harmony, so they can use that knowledge to guide students toward the acquisition of new technical options, and even higher levels of performance.
No argument from me here Rick. Note I didn't say go all the way to keeping the skis going the same direction. For the average skier, even with the same edge angles, the reduced pressure on the inside ski suggests that something more and supplemental is going on. You may get another hundred or two posts asking these kinds of questions Rick.

On the other hand the fundamental movements required to get the ski edge angles relatively the same are an important foundation in skiing. It is a good place to start, and work from. If you just can't move to get there, then we have movements we should work on. We should learn to walk before we learn to run.
post #339 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
For the average skier, even with the same edge angles, the reduced pressure on the inside ski suggests that something more and supplemental is going on.
I've wondered about this. If I start the sequence with tipping the outside (new inside) ski first and continue to tip to the LTE, the inside ski makes a nice slice. OTOH, when I don't tip the inside ski first it ends up skidding a bit around the arc.
post #340 of 348
In the frame just prior to bode's dual medial edges the 3rd frame he has an enourmous amount of recentering taking place and seems he may have lost some edge hold in the split second between the 2nd and 3rd frames. In fact it looks like his outside ski is skidding in in an odd postion in frame 3.

I am not sure this is a good example to be using here. Looks to me like the dual medial edges are due possibly to a recovery not a technical intention.

As far as the rest of the topic goes. I like what Max is saying and have found it to be very usefull in my skiing.

I find by thinking about rolling to the LTE of my outside ski to initiate and doing very little with my old inside ski it almost automatically falls into place with better speed control and without A-Frame.

In fact i discussed this very topic with a very successful coach. His comment was to roll that old outside ski (foot and more importantly knee to the inside of the new turn and his exact words were don't do anything with your old inside ski. It will come into place on it's own

This facilitates simultaneous edge change elimantes A-frame and promotes parallel shafts.

We learned in the old days to initiate by rolling the inside ski to the big toe edge and pressuirng the big toe edge and do nothing with the old outside ski.

A-Frame was the technique du-jour. And you needed 100% of the weight on the new outside ski to bend it!
post #341 of 348
A-Man, you're looking at ILE. It starts between image 2 and 3. By 3 the pressure transfer to the new outside ski it facilitates is almost completed,,, that's why it looks odd to you,,, at 3 the old outside ski is about to become a tag-along appendage. From 3 to 4 he's continuing to extend, and finishing the fore/aft recentering you noticed. The forward hand driving you see in 3 is aiding that recentering. The knock-kneed transitional stance is of no concern to him because his focus is on a clean new outside ski initiation. He's not trying to make his new inside ski arc in harmony with his arcing new outside ski, he's going to manually adjust it (and probably diverge it prior to it's engagement) so the new inside leg manipulation needed to create equal edge angles serve no purpose. Therefore he doesn't bother, he just lets it tip naturally with the movement of his CM toward the center of the new turn.

Similar knock kneed transitional positions displayed in these:

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/svindal-bc-2006-gs-2.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2004-2005/slides/schlopy-natls-2005-gs-1.html
post #342 of 348
Thanks for trying Roto. Max will undoubtedly go one forever about this. It reminds me of the sherriff in Much Ado About Nothing.
post #343 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
A-Man, you're looking at ILE. It starts between image 2 and 3. By 3 the pressure transfer to the new outside ski it facilitates is almost completed,,, that's why it looks odd to you,,, at 3 the old outside ski is about to become a tag-along appendage. From 3 to 4 he's continuing to extend, and finishing the fore/aft recentering you noticed. The forward hand driving you see in 3 is aiding that recentering. The knock-kneed transitional stance is of no concern to him because his focus is on a clean new outside ski initiation. He's not trying to make his new inside ski arc in harmony with his arcing new outside ski, he's going to manually adjust it (and probably diverge it prior to it's engagement) so the new inside leg manipulation needed to create equal edge angles serve no purpose. Therefore he doesn't bother, he just lets it tip naturally with the movement of his CM toward the center of the new turn.

Similar knock kneed transitional positions displayed in these:

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2007/slides/svindal-bc-2006-gs-2.html

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2004-2...2005-gs-1.html
Ok, but Svindal looks completely cattywampus (a technical ski term from the Ozark Mountains) in the 2nd frame past the gate. Similar to the same frame of Bode. Why is he so wide and out of balance suddenly after being so compact and balanced at the gate. In all these examples, Where is the simultaneous edge change?
post #344 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
In the frame just prior to bode's dual medial edges the 3rd frame he has an enourmous amount of recentering taking place and seems he may have lost some edge hold in the split second between the 2nd and 3rd frames. In fact it looks like his outside ski is skidding in in an odd postion in frame 3.

I am not sure this is a good example to be using here. Looks to me like the dual medial edges are due possibly to a recovery not a technical intention.

As far as the rest of the topic goes. I like what Max is saying and have found it to be very usefull in my skiing.

I find by thinking about rolling to the LTE of my outside ski to initiate and doing very little with my old inside ski it almost automatically falls into place with better speed control and without A-Frame.

In fact i discussed this very topic with a very successful coach. His comment was to roll that old outside ski (foot and more importantly knee to the inside of the new turn and his exact words were don't do anything with your old inside ski. It will come into place on it's own

This facilitates simultaneous edge change elimantes A-frame and promotes parallel shafts.

We learned in the old days to initiate by rolling the inside ski to the big toe edge and pressuirng the big toe edge and do nothing with the old outside ski.

A-Frame was the technique du-jour. And you needed 100% of the weight on the new outside ski to bend it!
Excellent post.
post #345 of 348
I think what Rick is trying to say is that the purpose of tipping to the LTE of the old outside ski while keeping a passive new outside ski is really to learn to move the center of mass accurately over a good athletic stance more than it is about parallel shafts and edge angles. Parallel shafts and edge angles are a result of staying in good athletic stance throughout the turn.

When you focus on the real issue at hand, promoting accurate center of mass movements, you realize that there is life beyond tipping to the LTE. Once you have mastered accurate center of mass movements you can suddenly have two active feet and legs under a stable athletic position instead of one active guiding foot and one passive ride foot.

When you truly understand how the center of mass is guided, you will understand what Bode is doing throughout these turns and how the activity in each foot contributes to the track and angle of the skis. I think that Rick, JASP and RicB are all at a level in their understanding and I am sure it shows in their skiing. Once there, everything is sensed through two active simultaneous feet.
post #346 of 348

Pathetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Thanks for trying Roto. Max will undoubtedly go one forever about this. It reminds me of the sherriff in Much Ado About Nothing.


This kind of attitude and consequential commentary is hardly reflective of a "ski pro."

As I suggested before, JASP, you're more than welcome to bypass this thread if it bothers you so much.

There are other folks here who are gaining and/or contributing some intriguing information, and don't necessarily mind if the thread "goes on forever."


If you don't like your comments being highlighted and examined for dissection, maybe you should think twice before posting advice on the "Ask A Ski Pro" forum.
post #347 of 348
Thanks Baja,
Boy I can now leave enlightened. BTW my comments being dissected doesn't bother me. Mis-quoting me does.
post #348 of 348
This thread appears to have lost sight of the original discussion and has deteriorated into nothing but bather back on forth between two points of view - neither of which is going to conceed that the other may have any amount of merit, therefore we have decided to close this thread. There are several great posts and great ideas in this thread that would make excellent side discussions, so for those interested, feel free to start those discussions.
Later
GREG
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
This thread is locked  
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping