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Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 10  

post #271 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post


Will you please describe...
Yes, the answers seems too short.
post #272 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Not at all. Its biomechanics. The average person will end up with more dominance tipping to the medial side of the foot. If we want to ski with parrallel shins then its going to take more effort, more focus, to get the inside ski tipped enough to match the angle created by the outside ski.
If a person needs to think of tipping the inside ski only in order to keep parallel shins and tip simultaneously, then by all means tell him to do that.
I have no trouble keeping my feet at the same angle without thinking about tipping the inside ski first. In fact I can pick up my feet while sitting on this chair and alternately put them both down together on either side with the appropriate identical angle so the soles flat on the floor. I bet you can too. try it.
post #273 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I have no trouble keeping my feet at the same angle without thinking about tipping the inside ski first. In fact I can pick up my feet while sitting on this chair and alternately put them both down together on either side with the appropriate identical angle so the soles flat on the floor. I bet you can too. try it.
What we can do sitting in our chairs is not a model for what we do in boots locked into a pair of bindings mounted on skis traveling at speed.

BTW, did you confirm your parallel shins with video or at least a sequence of pics?
post #274 of 348
Either you can control your feet or you can not.
post #275 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Either you can control your feet or you can not.
That's a bit over simplified. I know plenty of people that are graceful on dryland that wobble like crazy on skis or skates.
post #276 of 348
So? It's not the feet they cannot control.
post #277 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
So? It's not the feet they cannot control.
Like I said, the previous post oversimplified the issue.
post #278 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, you missed the highlighted portion of my question, I think. If the on snow foot separation is not intentionally narrowed, the legs open up as you go to neutral.
A typical PMTS move.
post #279 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Not at all. Its biomechanics. The average person will end up with more dominance tipping to the medial side of the foot. If we want to ski with parrallel shins then its going to take more effort, more focus, to get the inside ski tipped enough to match the angle created by the outside ski.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
It seems to me that for Max and Bob Barnes and many others a cue used to get to simultaneous (or near-simultaneous) movement is a focus on tipping the inside ski.
I also believe this is what is going on, but that may reflect my own weaknesses on skis more than anything else. For me, the focus on tipping the old outside/new inside ski to its LTE results in movements that are actually simultaneous (or nearly so), except for the occasional deliberate bow-legged "cowboy turn."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I have finally learned something important from this thread. It is possible to ski in a ballcap. I always thought it would blow off? When I used to wear my cowboy hat I always needed a chin strap.
This reminds me of when a group of us were out skiing with an extremely good skier (PSIA-RM DCL, yada, yada) who was wearing a ball cap. After some nice fast carving turns, the usual technique discussion ensued. Then one of us spoke up and said that what he really admired about Rick's technique was his ability to keep his ballcap on his head.

Rick's one-word reply? "Bostitch."
post #280 of 348
Going for 300! Max, the hip moving towards the new turn facilitates the legs and feet getting to flat. Which was the first line in the Bob Barnes quote you overlooked. This starts at the apex (in the control phase) and continues through the transition. Creating the bowlegged tip the inside ski move inhibits the pelvis and torso's un-interrupted movement into the new turn.
I struggled with the timing of releases until I worked with Katy Fry and Kurt Ferenbach. Sure you focus on inside leg tipping but don't hold onto the outside edge of the uphill ski and inhibit the downhill flow of the CoM. It's an un-necessary delay move using a ski with very little weight on it. (not enough weight to do in most circumstances).
So if we think about the new inside leg tipping to release the last turn, we also need to remember that the body is already moving towards the new turn. Why you would stop that so you could do the bowlegged move?
post #281 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Max, the hip moving towards the new turn facilitates the legs and feet getting to flat. Which was the first line in the Bob Barnes quote you overlooked.
I didn't overlook that line. He clearly states that the new inside foot tips/moves first.

The hip doesn't start moving towards the new turn until you begin the release. The release is started by something. For me its usually relaxing the outside leg while I tip it. That is the starting point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Sure you focus on inside leg tipping but don't hold onto the outside edge of the uphill ski and inhibit the downhill flow of the CoM. It's an un-necessary delay move using a ski with very little weight on it. (not enough weight to do in most circumstances).
Don't hold onto the uphill edge, just be passive. Let the ski follow the leg which is following the hips. Sounds like you like to do a weighted release (all weight stays on the outside ski through the release).

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
So if we think about the new inside leg tipping to release the last turn, we also need to remember that the body is already moving towards the new turn.
The body isn't moving into the new turn until you release the turn. If you doubt it don't release the turn and notice how you carve a circle.
post #282 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Going for 300! Max, the hip moving towards the new turn facilitates the legs and feet getting to flat. Which was the first line in the Bob Barnes quote you overlooked. This starts at the apex (in the control phase) and continues through the transition. Creating the bowlegged tip the inside ski move inhibits the pelvis and torso's un-interrupted movement into the new turn..........

Sure you focus on inside leg tipping but don't hold onto the outside edge of the uphill ski and inhibit the downhill flow of the CoM.................

Why you would stop that so you could do the bowlegged move?


Nonsense. Max's move doesn't inhibit the flow of the hips across the skis. If anything it encourages it. The bowlegged appearance is not a result of trying to hold back the tipping of the old inside (uphill) leg into the new turn,,, it occurs because of the old outside (downhill) leg's role of leading the tipping. That tipping of the old outside (downhill) leg can actually contribute to the movement of the hips across the skis, and the tipping of the old inside (uphill) leg, by pulling them along. I haven't seen Max suggest anywhere that the natural tipping of the old inside leg that results from the lead tipping of the old outside leg should be resisted/delayed.

JASP,,, there's nothing desparately wrong with what Max is suggesting. It's a learning prompt that for some students can actually help eliminate the CM crossing block you're speaking of. From what you've written above, it seems as though you've greatly misunderstood his explanation. Unless, of course, I have. Max?
post #283 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Nonsense. Max's move doesn't inhibit the flow of the hips across the skis. If anything it encourages it. The bowlegged appearance is not a result of trying to hold back the tipping of the old inside (uphill) leg into the new turn,,, it occurs because of the old outside (downhill) leg's role of leading the tipping. That tipping of the old outside (downhill) leg can actually contribute to the movement of the hips across the skis, and the tipping of the old inside (uphill) leg, by pulling them along. I haven't seen Max suggest anywhere that the natural tipping of the old inside leg that results from the lead tipping of the old outside leg should be resisted/delayed.

JASP,,, there's nothing desparately wrong with what Max is suggesting. It's a learning prompt that for some students can actually help eliminate the CM crossing block you're speaking of. From what you've written above, it seems as though you've greatly misunderstood his explanation. Unless, of course, I have. Max?
Rick, you just explained it better than I did in any of the prior posts. Thanks.
post #284 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post
"Bostitch."
I enjoyed that.
post #285 of 348
Damn you Max501. I was just in bed and couldn't sleep. Had to get up and post this...

Back to putting it in context. One reason I'd say neither ski turns first is this; what does turn mean to the layman? Our guy is moving from straight skis to shaped. He's used to skidding down the mountain windshield wipering his way from side to side. To put this in PSIA terms, let's say he owns rotary, and he's probably pretty good on the pressure side of things too. When he says which ski does he TURN first, I think he means to which ski does he apply rotary first. I don't think tipping is going to mean turning to him, and that's what we actually want him to learn. We want him to stop turning the skis, and learn to let them turn. So which ski does he turn first? Neither. Make sense? I hope so. I'm going back to bed now.
post #286 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Damn you Max501. I was just in bed and couldn't sleep. Had to get up and post this...

Back to putting it in context. One reason I'd say neither ski turns first is this; what does turn mean to the layman? Our guy is moving from straight skis to shaped. He's used to skidding down the mountain windshield wipering his way from side to side. To put this in PSIA terms, let's say he owns rotary, and he's probably pretty good on the pressure side of things too. When he says which ski does he TURN first, I think he means to which ski does he apply rotary first. I don't think tipping is going to mean turning to him, and that's what we actually want him to learn. We want him to stop turning the skis, and learn to let them turn. So which ski does he turn first? Neither. Make sense? I hope so. I'm going back to bed now.
not until this post do i realise that turn could means actually turning the skis with rotary force. i probably have to re-read many posts.
post #287 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
We want him to stop turning the skis, and learn to let them turn. So which ski does he turn first? Neither. Make sense? I hope so. I'm going back to bed now.
Well, BB addressed turning the skis and he said the new inside ski turns first.
post #288 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
It's a learning prompt...
Rick,

As a learning prompt, I would expect conscious focus and effort to be applied while learning. Once learned, I would think practiced movements would be dialed in appropriately without the specific focus and effort. Yes/No?

Chris
post #289 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Rick,

As a learning prompt, I would expect conscious focus and effort to be applied while learning. Once learned, I would think practiced movements would be dialed in appropriately without the specific focus and effort. Yes/No?

Chris
If one had only one set of movements, perhaps.

Prompts don't necessarily die once movement patterns are learned. Skiers who develop many technical options in their skiing usually have prompts that go with each option, so as to provide a means to initiate different movement patterns with consistency. Let's call these technical option prompts, EXECUTION PROMPTS.

Examples; One might use pushing down on the old inside foot as the execution prompt for ILE,,, relaxation of the old outside leg as the execution prompt for OLR,,, anticipation as the execution prompt for a pivot entry turn,,, etc. Different prompts to consistently facilitate separate results.

Sometimes learning prompts can be held onto and used as one of these individual technical option execution prompts. I think Max has done that for the transition he favors. And from what I understand PMTS uses other transitions too. I would suspect Max has execution prompts for them too.
post #290 of 348
Ok, Rick, I follow.

I'm fine with the concept of EXECUTION PROMPT (or cue or whatever). Thanks.

Certainly we are going to focus on many specific movements from time to time and spend time and effort learning them, then - once learned - incorporate them into our skiing without specific conscious thought to each one each time in each turn.

We'd really gig up our skiing if we had to sequentially think our way through each turn, right? ...flex the old outside leg, co-contract, tip the old outside leg, pull back the inside foot, counter-act, counter-balance... (please note this was not whatsoever meant to be a complete list of movements)

So, sure, as you say, maybe we pick a cue to get us rolling. We might just as well each think of that cue as the "first" thing that happens. My cue and yours don't have to be same one though (for any given transition or whatever we might be prompting for), so your first and mine can each be different and right ...right?

Chris
post #291 of 348
Right on, Chris.
post #292 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Well, BB addressed turning the skis and he said the new inside ski turns first.
I'm going to guess that in this case, BB means turn in the sense that you are used to. If he didn't, wouldn't you expect to see diverent skis? I would, and when I see divergent skis, I usually expect to see less edge angle and a lot of tip lead on that inside ski.Two things I wouild really not expect to see with the tipping movements you and BB are both talkig about. I figure by saying inside ski turns first, he means that the inside ski initiates turning of the skier.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that in PSIA "turn" means "apply rotary force". I'm saying that I think that's what it may mean to the OP in the other thread. This just sounds like so many chairlift conversations I have had.

Maybe re-read a few things.
post #293 of 348
I have skied with Bob enough to know that what he means is very close to what Max means. The big difference is that Bob does not favor lift and tip in any way except as a last resort excercise nor does Bob favor a really narrow stance and varying width track.

Bob has major differences with HH but initiating with the inside ski is not one of them.
post #294 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
...nor does Bob favor a really narrow stance and varying width track.
How would you describe the stance width and track width shown below?



More here:
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=49
post #295 of 348
Many others at Bob's level and higher have taken that move and added the pelvic movement as a focus. In fact, this is a method of eliminating sequential leg usage because like Max has pointed out several times the foot focus makes simultaneous leg usage harder to get our students and staff to do. It is as Rick says "a prompt" but not with the opposing outside edge part. Which may seem like a heresy to some of you who want to quote Bob Barnes in an almost religious chapter verse way. Which I might point out everything I see here in this thread points out a story being told which includes both legs moving towards flat and beyond as well as the prompt focussed on the tipping of the inside foot. Which I see as a way to say start the turn with the inside tipping so that you do not start it elsewhere (outside leg).
FYI for those that need validity from authority to even listen to what I have said and how I used it in the original question from Paul, I learned this from ... Katy Fry, Andy Dockens, Kurt Ferenback, Squatty Schuller and the rest of the Aspen training staff. With all due respect to Bob, HH and anyone else you want to quote, the world is bigger than one authority or source. With over 200 examiner level teachers from around the world, I learned that there is more than one valid and authoratative opinion on everything we do.

Back to the context of the thread...
If you read further in the original thread about all of this, the main problem is fear from lack of traction prompting Paul to over do the heel thrust, pivot moves. Slowing that down by concentrating on the greasy sliding on flat skis sensation (and learning to not fear it), is the objective. Not racer turns where you need to get from edge to edge at a precise moment to maintain line. Racers are doing all sorts of sequential things because the situation demands it. Are they thinking about it or just reacting would be my question. Everything Kent Rhychel, Casy Pucket and the rest of the coaches I 've worked with suggests reactions because there simply isn't time for a lot of conscious thought about this or that technical detail.
post #296 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
In fact, this is a method of eliminating sequential leg usage because like Max has pointed out several times the foot focus makes simultaneous leg usage harder to get our students and staff to do.
I'm not what you mean here and I'm pretty sure I didn't mean to say what you think I said. What'd I say?

What I have pointed out is that simultaneous and equal ski tipping is difficult due to biomechanics.
post #297 of 348
No Max it is not. Moving the prompt to the other end of the parallelagram makes it almost unconsciously simple. Doesn't take a way the don't start the turn before releasing the old outside ski though. It is an evolution of that idea. A way to remain contemporaneous.
post #298 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
No Max it is not. Moving the prompt to the other end of the parallelagram makes it almost unconsciously simple. Doesn't take a way the don't start the turn before releasing the old outside ski though. It is an evolution of that idea. A way to remain contemporaneous.
Are you saying that its as easy to tip to the lateral side as it is to tip to the medial side of the foot?
post #299 of 348
Max501 - I hope you started this thread to gain understanding of the "Which Ski Should I Turn First" thread. If that's the case, are we getting anywhere. I thought maybe we wre, but now it seems like we are veering back into something else. I'll be happy to stop reading this thread if you have some other intent.
post #300 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How would you describe the stance width and track width shown below?
Narrow but functional with a slightly varying track width.
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