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Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 8  

post #211 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I was looking at the biomechanics of the movement and as far as I can tell tipping the inside foot will bring the outside foot right along to a matching edge angle. Why do you think that would change at some point?
Good Max, this also holds true for the flattening phase as well.
post #212 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
If this is a very real danger I think the ultimate goal is to avoid this danger. But what could hook up the inside skis to such extend ? Just some mush or grippy snow will do? If this is the case then are we all in a very high risk if we were not careful enough or not competent enough? I like to explore more about this danger. Anyone want to contribute more?
Actually carver_hk this is an injury that appears to be reserved for very high level skiers. Very few skiers can get the kind of angles and pressure necessary to cause this injury.

The injury is really precipitated by falling out with the inside hip because the pressures are very high. If you are habitual with the tipping focus for all your needs you will likely tip the inside ski to match the hip. With high pressures you are very vulnerable with tipping exclusively as your religion in this situation.

All you have to do is go talk to a few elite skiers with this injury and they will tell you how they did it.
post #213 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm having a hard time seeing this as an inside ski tipping issue. Seems to me that if you tip both skis at once (or ski from the hips down) you could also cause the inside ski hookup you described. If you go too far, its too far, what difference does the movement used to get there make?
You are having a hard time seeing it because you focus is narrow. This is not an injury exclusive to the method you use. This is an injury that grows in risk with the focus you have. Your message is so persistent that it comes across as a religion.
post #214 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
You are having a hard time seeing it because you focus is narrow. This is not an injury exclusive to the method you use. This is an injury that grows in risk with the focus you have. Your message is so persistent that it comes across as a religion.
How is the message different than what BB and others have been posting for years on Epic?
post #215 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
The injury is really precipitated by falling out with the inside hip because the pressures are very high. If you are habitual with the tipping focus for all your needs you will likely tip the inside ski to match the hip. With high pressures you are very vulnerable with tipping exclusively as your religion in this situation.
I don't fully understand the scenarios. Anyway thanks for trying to explain to me. If you get any photo of someone taken just before this mishap I believe it would helps a lot of elite skier in this forum to eliminate this great risk.
Before your statement I planned to try out this simultaneous issue in real snow today. Now I guess I need to look further before putting my legs at risk.
post #216 of 348
Thread Starter 
Simultaneous tipping vs independent tipping. Which should a developing skier learn and practice. Why?
post #217 of 348
Don't worry carver_hk. The very high level skiers are all aware of this risk. Word travels fast in that group.

When a new injury starts to appear all to often we all re-evaluate our own skiing and equipment to see if we are at risk. That goes for all ability levels.

This doesn't have much bearing on most skiers and I only brought it up as a possible negative to Max's focus.
post #218 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Don't worry carver_hk. The very high level skiers are all aware of this risk. Word travels fast in that group.

When a new injury starts to appear all to often we all re-evaluate our own skiing and equipment to see if we are at risk. That goes for all ability levels.

This doesn't have much bearing on most skiers and I only brought it up as a possible negative to Max's focus.
it's very comforting to hear that. Thank you.
Just because for the moment I don't aware if I tip inside skis first or simultaneously both. I ll see what's my habit and try the other way round see what's the difference. Any pointer what to look for?
post #219 of 348
After reading through the day's posts, it has become clear to me that there are many different levels of awareness of exactly what movements are being made when. To some people the magic kinetic chain takes care of the movements without their needing to know about what is happening. To others the movement of "tipping the skis" starts at the ankles (even if their ankles can't move in that plane), while to other's the movement of tipping the skis starts at the hips. To others all movement initiates for the centre of their chi. Much of the debate here is due to different people having different awareness of what they are doing with thier bodies. That's fine; the trouble begins when one assumes the person they are trying to teach has the same awareness or conceptual model of movements that they have.

A lot of people can relate to a car, as we almost all drive to the hill. What are the tires of the car doing when we initiate a turn. Does the right tire turn first in a right turn. Why should our right ski edge first in a right turn? Why would thinking about it that way help? For some, with their level of awareness of their bodies exact movements, it's because thinking of it that way allows them to make it simultaneous. Let's just not assume that it is so for everybody.
post #220 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
No, its very hard to weight the inside ski when you are really crankin and doing a good job of it.

On the other hand, can you guarantee me that you will never end up with weight on the inside ski?
This injury is irrespective of the movement pattern at transition. It sounds more like it is reserved for two footed skiing than outside dominance and equal edge angles.
post #221 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
That's fine; the trouble begins when one assumes the person they are trying to teach has the same awareness or conceptual model of movements that they have.
Bingo that is why many here are arguing. A good instructor has to be a perpetual student and explore movements from many different perspectives and gain wide lateral knowledge.
post #222 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
A lot of people can relate to a car, as we almost all drive to the hill. What are the tires of the car doing when we initiate a turn. Does the right tire turn first in a right turn. Why should our right ski edge first in a right turn? Why would thinking about it that way help? For some, with their level of awareness of their bodies exact movements, it's because thinking of it that way allows them to make it simultaneous. Let's just not assume that it is so for everybody.
Is a car a good model for human biomechanics?
post #223 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Is a car a good model for human biomechanics?
Yes, provided you do not have a limited capacity for analogy. The suspension pieces and linkages may differ in geometry, but the principles are identical. A front tire on each side, a front ski edge to engage on each side, upper and lower ball joints defining a line and camber, shins defining a line and tipping angle, everything connected by bones and joints, everything connected by metal rods and joints.
post #224 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Yes, provided you do not have a limited capacity for analogy. The suspension pieces and linkages may differ in geometry, but the principles are identical. A front tire on each side, a front ski edge to engage on each side, upper and lower ball joints defining a line and camber, shins defining a line and tipping angle, everything connected by bones and joints, everything connected by metal rods and joints.
In a car the steering wheel turns the wheels simultaneously. There is no analogous part of the human body that we can use to turn the feet/legs as a single unit.

Well, not unless you co-contract every joint from the pelvis down and rotated the pelvis in the direction of the turn. I suppose that might be analogous to the cars steering wheel.
post #225 of 348
Is this thread getting ridiculous, or what?

....Ott
post #226 of 348
Max, Max, Max,
You're making it too complicated. You just need to think of your shins as the wheels and the skis as that bit where the rubber meets the road. You do not need to know the muscles of the pelvic girdle, nor the mechanics of tie-rods, and steering racks. That can be a black box, even though there are muscles that perform the same function as the front end of a car - orienting the wheels and tires, aka the shins and skis.
post #227 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Max, Max, Max,
You're making it too complicated. You just need to think of your shins as the wheels and the skis as that bit where the rubber meets the road. You do not need to know the muscles of the pelvic girdle, nor the mechanics of tie-rods, and steering racks. That can be a black box, even though there are muscles that perform the same function as the front end of a car - orienting the wheels and tires, aka the shins and skis.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming. Its either simultaneous or not. If its simultaneous you don't start with one foot or the other because by definition they move together without either being first.

Some feel that simultaneous is the correct approach. Others feel that one foot or the other starts the movement. Two different approaches.

If we agree that simultaneous is 'perfect' and if simultaneous movements worked well, why did some instructors create the independent approach?
post #228 of 348
caever_hk, I watched all you videos on YouTube and you are initiating the turns with simultaneous leg action. I realize that that indoor slope allows you only six turns. In all your videos you are making identical turns at the same speed and at that speed just swinging back and forth gets the job done.

Next time try to make twelve turns at slower speed and by finishing the turns more into the slope. Slower speed will give you much more feedback as to what is happening at your initiation and throughout the turn.

You ski well enough to experiment with with different initiations and turn radii.
At this slower speed try the initiation that Max describes and see if you like it better than what you are doing now. Also try some turn initiations where you lift up the inside ski completely and at the finish of the turn set that foot down and immediately lift the other skis and keep turning, try hopping from one set of edges and coming down on the other set with both skis, and many variations of all the above, there is nothing like feeling it yourself instead of just reading about it.

Good night....Ott
post #229 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Is this thread getting ridiculous, or what?

....Ott

Yes, Ott, it is beyond ridiculous!

from a letter to a friend earlier tonight...

["It's really hard not to laugh at these guys. Debating
once again to the umpteenth degree, something which is
more conceptual than actually physical. When are they
going to get past it? All that guys like Bode and
Hermann care about is doing what ever it takes to get
to the finish line as fast as possible. They don't
give a rat's ass is they moved simultaneously or not.
In fact, I would bet you that without going back and
evaluating a run on video, they do not even know if
they moved one leg/ski before the other. They just did
what they had to do, as best as they could do it, at
each moment of the run."]


Maybe we, as lesser skiers than Bode and Hermann, should learn something from their perspective...?
post #230 of 348
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water....

As far as the race itself goes, I agree -- a no holds barred assault.

But they most certainly do drills to hone their technique.

If in the end nothing matters except finish time, why bother doing any drills? Why bother with technique? Why even think about it?
post #231 of 348
Thread Starter 
Are you really suggesting that WC skiers don't work on technique? I've heard that there are technical training sessions, in depth MA, etc. If they didn't care about technique why bother with anything but running gates?
post #232 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Next time try to make twelve turns at slower speed and by finishing the turns more into the slope. Slower speed will give you much more feedback as to what is happening at your initiation and throughout the turn.
Thanks for checking out my vids, confirm the way I turn, the pointers and especially the confidence you have on me. Honously I m not good enough to slow down and stay carving yet. I believe the best I can do right now is to make like 7 or 8 turns. Anyway I do my best to try out what you described and see if I get anything new.
post #233 of 348
I would rather be skiing than posting in this thread, but at the moment this is all I've got.
post #234 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Are you really suggesting that WC skiers don't work on technique? I've heard that there are technical training sessions, in depth MA, etc. If they didn't care about technique why bother with anything but running gates?
still waiting for vsp to put up.
post #235 of 348
Ok, Big E...since I have been there and coached that, I will put up!

First of all, you guys are all blurring the lines between concept, training, and application.

The concept is to provide some amount of focus which generates a given movement. This can be done via a multitude of ways- video, pictures, physical positioning, whatever. (This is what most of your hairsplitting is about, but then you immediately compare it to application- WRONG!)

The training consists of learning that movement, then beginning to practice it until it's somewhat ingrained. Remember- it's still learning until you can do it right, consistently. Then it becomes practice. This is great.

When it comes time for the application, the best you can hope for is that most of the habits/ patterns which are ingrained are performed. But given that NO 2 TURNS are the same, every single effort will be slightly different. Therefore, some measure of personalality comes into play. This is where Bode excels at improvisation. Hermann is great, but he is more disciplined and less likely to improvise.

So when the fundamentals are similar, then what is the difference between winning and second? Often its the ability to improvise. But the improvisation MUST be grounded in the fundamentals, otherwise the results will be inconsistent. Hermann may finish most races, but he isn't winning like he used to. The guys at the top now have his discipline and Bode's knack for improvisation.

Back to the question at hand-

Because each and every turn WILL be different, having the ability to make simultaneous movements would be good, but are they mandatory for each and every turn? NO! Is making sequential movements bad? NO!

There is a time and a place in skiing to make almost any kind of movement. So once again, it comes back to how great your level of experience and understanding is, to allow your body and subconcsious to automatically select (based on prior experience) what might be the best choice of a movement or tactic in any given situation.
Why do you suppose there are training days when coaches set stupid courses for their skiers to train in? Because stupid courses happen sometimes, and they need to have some measure of experience to deal with them when they do! That is one way to encourage a skier to improvise.

Have you ever had a run where there wasn't some amount of improvisation in it? Was it so textbook perfect that nothing went wrong, to even the slightest degree? Then I and the rest of the skiing world bow to you, because there isn't a WC skier out there who has ever experienced that!

Therefore- train yourself to perform, but in the course of the performance, do not expect perfection. And because we are not perfect, don't sweat the small stuff- keep going toward the bigger picture.

So, is it good to have the ability to do a certain movement? Sure, but if it doesn't happen perfectly, who gives a damn?

This is why I laugh at these inane "technical" discussions.

'nuff said.... Good Night and Good Luck....
post #236 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Because each and every turn WILL be different, having the ability to make simultaneous movements would be good, but are they mandatory for each and every turn? NO! Is making sequential movements bad? NO!
If we focus on training (rather than application), do you think there is a benefit to teaching one method over the other?
post #237 of 348
Thank you VailSnoPro for that very fine post.

It's 12:45. I'm hitting the backs[pace key far more than I want to. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Cheers!
post #238 of 348
Max-
To quote Mr Spock in an episode of Star Trek-

"It is easier for a civilized person to act uncivilized, than for an uncivilized person to act civilized".
post #239 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja View Post
How does good skiing transcend "good," Rick?
"GOOD" one, Baja!

But I think you know what I'm saying.

Good and bad, narrowly defined.

Used as prompts for learning,

Both sides of this debate, though seemingly in conflict, are both offering such valuable prompts.

But when learning prompts are carried to extremes, as a unilateral definition of "good" skiing.
post #240 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Here's a data point for you. This summer I had the good fortune to get a few days of training from an elite coach that has something like 20 years of experience working with the US Ski Team. The movement pattern he coaches starts with the feet.
Im not surpriced but did he suggest independent ski tipping and ancle rolling? Im not against ancle rolling but I think of it more as a way of applying pressure since my foot doesent move much inside my boot.
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