Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 8  

Good Max, this also holds true for the flattening phase as well.

Actually carver_hk this is an injury that appears to be reserved for very high level skiers. Very few skiers can get the kind of angles and pressure necessary to cause this injury.

The injury is really precipitated by falling out with the inside hip because the pressures are very high. If you are habitual with the tipping focus for all your needs you will likely tip the inside ski to match the hip. With high pressures you are very vulnerable with tipping exclusively as your religion in this situation.

All you have to do is go talk to a few elite skiers with this injury and they will tell you how they did it.

You are having a hard time seeing it because you focus is narrow. This is not an injury exclusive to the method you use. This is an injury that grows in risk with the focus you have. Your message is so persistent that it comes across as a religion.

I don't fully understand the scenarios. Anyway thanks for trying to explain to me. If you get any photo of someone taken just before this mishap I believe it would helps a lot of elite skier in this forum to eliminate this great risk.
Before your statement I planned to try out this simultaneous issue in real snow today. Now I guess I need to look further before putting my legs at risk.

Don't worry carver_hk. The very high level skiers are all aware of this risk. Word travels fast in that group.

When a new injury starts to appear all to often we all re-evaluate our own skiing and equipment to see if we are at risk. That goes for all ability levels.

This doesn't have much bearing on most skiers and I only brought it up as a possible negative to Max's focus.

it's very comforting to hear that. Thank you.
Just because for the moment I don't aware if I tip inside skis first or simultaneously both. I ll see what's my habit and try the other way round see what's the difference. Any pointer what to look for?

After reading through the day's posts, it has become clear to me that there are many different levels of awareness of exactly what movements are being made when. To some people the magic kinetic chain takes care of the movements without their needing to know about what is happening. To others the movement of "tipping the skis" starts at the ankles (even if their ankles can't move in that plane), while to other's the movement of tipping the skis starts at the hips. To others all movement initiates for the centre of their chi. Much of the debate here is due to different people having different awareness of what they are doing with thier bodies. That's fine; the trouble begins when one assumes the person they are trying to teach has the same awareness or conceptual model of movements that they have.

A lot of people can relate to a car, as we almost all drive to the hill. What are the tires of the car doing when we initiate a turn. Does the right tire turn first in a right turn. Why should our right ski edge first in a right turn? Why would thinking about it that way help? For some, with their level of awareness of their bodies exact movements, it's because thinking of it that way allows them to make it simultaneous. Let's just not assume that it is so for everybody.

This injury is irrespective of the movement pattern at transition. It sounds more like it is reserved for two footed skiing than outside dominance and equal edge angles.

Bingo that is why many here are arguing. A good instructor has to be a perpetual student and explore movements from many different perspectives and gain wide lateral knowledge.

Yes, provided you do not have a limited capacity for analogy. The suspension pieces and linkages may differ in geometry, but the principles are identical. A front tire on each side, a front ski edge to engage on each side, upper and lower ball joints defining a line and camber, shins defining a line and tipping angle, everything connected by bones and joints, everything connected by metal rods and joints.

Is this thread getting ridiculous, or what?

....Ott

Max, Max, Max,
You're making it too complicated. You just need to think of your shins as the wheels and the skis as that bit where the rubber meets the road. You do not need to know the muscles of the pelvic girdle, nor the mechanics of tie-rods, and steering racks. That can be a black box, even though there are muscles that perform the same function as the front end of a car - orienting the wheels and tires, aka the shins and skis.

caever_hk, I watched all you videos on YouTube and you are initiating the turns with simultaneous leg action. I realize that that indoor slope allows you only six turns. In all your videos you are making identical turns at the same speed and at that speed just swinging back and forth gets the job done.

Next time try to make twelve turns at slower speed and by finishing the turns more into the slope. Slower speed will give you much more feedback as to what is happening at your initiation and throughout the turn.

You ski well enough to experiment with with different initiations and turn radii.
At this slower speed try the initiation that Max describes and see if you like it better than what you are doing now. Also try some turn initiations where you lift up the inside ski completely and at the finish of the turn set that foot down and immediately lift the other skis and keep turning, try hopping from one set of edges and coming down on the other set with both skis, and many variations of all the above, there is nothing like feeling it yourself instead of just reading about it.

Good night....Ott

Yes, Ott, it is beyond ridiculous!

from a letter to a friend earlier tonight...

["It's really hard not to laugh at these guys. Debating
once again to the umpteenth degree, something which is
more conceptual than actually physical. When are they
going to get past it? All that guys like Bode and
Hermann care about is doing what ever it takes to get
to the finish line as fast as possible. They don't
give a rat's ass is they moved simultaneously or not.
In fact, I would bet you that without going back and
evaluating a run on video, they do not even know if
they moved one leg/ski before the other. They just did
what they had to do, as best as they could do it, at
each moment of the run."]


Maybe we, as lesser skiers than Bode and Hermann, should learn something from their perspective...?

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water....

As far as the race itself goes, I agree -- a no holds barred assault.

But they most certainly do drills to hone their technique.

If in the end nothing matters except finish time, why bother doing any drills? Why bother with technique? Why even think about it?

Thanks for checking out my vids, confirm the way I turn, the pointers and especially the confidence you have on me. Honously I m not good enough to slow down and stay carving yet. I believe the best I can do right now is to make like 7 or 8 turns. Anyway I do my best to try out what you described and see if I get anything new.

I would rather be skiing than posting in this thread, but at the moment this is all I've got.

still waiting for vsp to put up.

Ok, Big E...since I have been there and coached that, I will put up!

First of all, you guys are all blurring the lines between concept, training, and application.

The concept is to provide some amount of focus which generates a given movement. This can be done via a multitude of ways- video, pictures, physical positioning, whatever. (This is what most of your hairsplitting is about, but then you immediately compare it to application- WRONG!)

The training consists of learning that movement, then beginning to practice it until it's somewhat ingrained. Remember- it's still learning until you can do it right, consistently. Then it becomes practice. This is great.

When it comes time for the application, the best you can hope for is that most of the habits/ patterns which are ingrained are performed. But given that NO 2 TURNS are the same, every single effort will be slightly different. Therefore, some measure of personalality comes into play. This is where Bode excels at improvisation. Hermann is great, but he is more disciplined and less likely to improvise.

So when the fundamentals are similar, then what is the difference between winning and second? Often its the ability to improvise. But the improvisation MUST be grounded in the fundamentals, otherwise the results will be inconsistent. Hermann may finish most races, but he isn't winning like he used to. The guys at the top now have his discipline and Bode's knack for improvisation.

Back to the question at hand-

Because each and every turn WILL be different, having the ability to make simultaneous movements would be good, but are they mandatory for each and every turn? NO! Is making sequential movements bad? NO!

There is a time and a place in skiing to make almost any kind of movement. So once again, it comes back to how great your level of experience and understanding is, to allow your body and subconcsious to automatically select (based on prior experience) what might be the best choice of a movement or tactic in any given situation.
Why do you suppose there are training days when coaches set stupid courses for their skiers to train in? Because stupid courses happen sometimes, and they need to have some measure of experience to deal with them when they do! That is one way to encourage a skier to improvise.

Have you ever had a run where there wasn't some amount of improvisation in it? Was it so textbook perfect that nothing went wrong, to even the slightest degree? Then I and the rest of the skiing world bow to you, because there isn't a WC skier out there who has ever experienced that!

Therefore- train yourself to perform, but in the course of the performance, do not expect perfection. And because we are not perfect, don't sweat the small stuff- keep going toward the bigger picture.

So, is it good to have the ability to do a certain movement? Sure, but if it doesn't happen perfectly, who gives a damn?

This is why I laugh at these inane "technical" discussions.

'nuff said.... Good Night and Good Luck....

Thank you VailSnoPro for that very fine post.

It's 12:45. I'm hitting the backs[pace key far more than I want to. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Cheers!

Max-
To quote Mr Spock in an episode of Star Trek-

"It is easier for a civilized person to act uncivilized, than for an uncivilized person to act civilized".

"GOOD" one, Baja!

But I think you know what I'm saying.

Good and bad, narrowly defined.

Used as prompts for learning,

Both sides of this debate, though seemingly in conflict, are both offering such valuable prompts.

But when learning prompts are carried to extremes, as a unilateral definition of "good" skiing.

Im not surpriced but did he suggest independent ski tipping and ancle rolling? Im not against ancle rolling but I think of it more as a way of applying pressure since my foot doesent move much inside my boot.