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Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 7  

post #181 of 348
10/29/07 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
>>>I've been a bit surprised by the strong reaction regarding my suggestion that the inside ski should tip first because I've seen this exact movement pattern mentioned on Epic before.<<<

I thought you advocated to tip the OUTSIDE ski first for a release, am I wrong in thinking this?

...
He means the outside ski as it becomes the inside ski.
post #182 of 348
10/29/07 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
Another interesting quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
Order of movement I'd invite you to try is to lead thru a turn by continously rolling inside foot to little toe edge (inverting it), which results in that leg taking shape as some femur rotation toward inside of turn (abduction) is recruited by the foot movement. This inside half leading activity draws outside half into alignment over outside balance/support leg/foot as it follows by rolling onto big toe edge (everted). Any inward rotation (aduction) of that outside stance leg should usually be passive/resultant unless there is intention, on purpose, to really "crank'em" vs. "guide'em".
post #183 of 348
10/29/07 at 10:34am
Thread Starter 
And one more from the Perfect Turn Thread

Note the lines I have put in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
...

POSITIVE TIPPING MOVEMENTS:
To turn your skis left, you first have to let go of their grip on the mountain. You have to reduce their edge angle, by tipping them to the left until they release. Probably it was the downhill ski that had most of your weight and provided the main grip on the mountain (it's only natural--a car crossing a hill would have most of the weight on the downhill tires, too). So the turn begins when you release the edge of the downhill ski with tipping movements--"positive" ones, in the direction you're trying to go. Besides, you can't very well tip the UPhill ski down the hill without moving your downhill leg out of its way. So it all begins with a TIPPING movement of the downhill foot and leg to flatten the ski and release its edge.

That might be enough, too. Release that grip, and you're like a bowling ball--gravity will pull you down the hill. Keep tipping the skis into the turn, and the curved left edges will engage, pulling you around like steel rails pull a train. But of course, that bowling ball and that locomotive have no CONTROL of their line, so they're turning, but they aren't really making "the perfect turn." Let's say you REALLY want to get down that hill, and gravity's gentle arc isn't tight enough for you. YOU want to control your line--you can't wait for gravity and sidecut to do it. What do you do? You TURN your skis--as much as you need to.

POSITIVE TURNING MOVEMENTS ("STEERING"):
Your skis point across the hill. You want them to point DOWN the hill, to your left. How do you do it? You can point an arrow to the left two ways (or a combination)--you can move its tip to the left, or you can move its feathered tail to the right. Both result in the same direction of pointing, but one involves POSITIVE movement, the other NEGATIVE. So, like the arrow, "the perfect turn" involves steering the TIPS of the skis INTO the turn. Any movements that push or twist the TAILS of the skis OUT of the turn are negative movements, and are therefore incompatible with the "perfect turn."

What does this mean? Again, you can't steer the tip of the right ski left first, because the left tip is in its way. So again, we have to start the movement with the left (downhill) ski tip, to go left. Turn the left tip left to go left; turn the right tip right to go right--how many times have I said these words here in the Forum?

...
post #184 of 348
10/29/07 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
We should be careful about applying universal concepts like "right" or "wrong" to any particular movements in given situations.
Well said sir. I really should have left my first post in this thread where it was and kept my mouth shut.

Thanks for posting those very exciting photos.
post #185 of 348
10/29/07 at 10:59am
I'll let Bob comment on this and as I said there is nothing wrong with any initiation that works for you as long as doesn't hang you up.

Max, I have the sneaking suspicion that you think the transition you advocate is the only way to do it right, well it is for you since you don't know any others I presume, am I right?

....Ott
post #186 of 348
10/29/07 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Max, I have the sneaking suspicion that you think the transition you advocate is the only way to do it right, well it is for you since you don't know any others I presume, am I right?
That would be incorrect.

But this thread isn't about a specific type of transition. Rather its to explore the notion that the feet/legs must be moved simultaneously.
post #187 of 348
10/29/07 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This was addressed earlier. Just put some tension in your hip muscles when you tip and you'll start the chain reaction of foot tipping, tibia tipping, femur tipping, hip into turn.
So by tentioning my hip muscles Im not starting at the hips?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
That movement pattern is pretty much opposite of what I know or do.
If you intend to do small jabs continuously after each other like through a straight brush line you were talking about earlier different technique must be used. In that case you offset your hips by pointing your knees. But still your hips will be in a favorable position after that first initial jab. Many times same end result is reached with different mind cues but sometimes there are differences that make all the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Here's something that might be of interest to you:
I have read that before and dont really agree. Im not saying its wrong but I see things differently.
post #188 of 348
10/29/07 at 11:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
So by tentioning my hip muscles Im not starting at the hips?
Not at all. The muscles around the joint with either be relaxed or have some tension in them. If you want the kinetic chain to function effeciently then you need some tension.
post #189 of 348
10/29/07 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
And one more from the Perfect Turn Thread

Note the lines I have put in bold.
Note the lines you passes over Max. Bob is talking in plurals, about the skis and edges. Sure the inside leg needs to get out of the way but THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE OUTSIDE LEG IS NOT MOVING AT THE SAME TIME.
post #190 of 348
10/29/07 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Note the lines you passes over Max. Bob is talking in plurals, about the skis and edges. Sure the inside leg needs to get out of the way but THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE OUTSIDE LEG IS NOT MOVING AT THE SAME TIME.
A point of clarification. I'm not suggesting the new outside leg doesn't move at the same time for MOST of the time. My focus is specifically on the starting point. Is is simultaneous tipping or not?

Taking a closer look trying to find a pattern which might help me understand what BB is suggesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado ...then the inside foot, leg, and ski are IN the way! They MUST move first!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado ...So it all begins with a TIPPING movement of the downhill foot and leg to flatten the ski and release its edge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado ...So again, we have to start the movement with the left (downhill) ski tip, to go left.
Those highlighted phrases seem to imply that there is a movement that starts with the outside (new inside) ski.
post #191 of 348
10/29/07 at 1:08pm
They are moving it out of the way but the other leg can and does move at the same time. The focus is on the inside leg moving but since they are attached at the pelvis moving one moves the other.
post #192 of 348
10/29/07 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Note the lines you passes over Max. Bob is talking in plurals, about the skis and edges. Sure the inside leg needs to get out of the way but THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE OUTSIDE LEG IS NOT MOVING AT THE SAME TIME.
I'm sure if Bob meant it, he would have said that both skis are tipped or steered at the same time. Bob is one of the clearest writers there is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes in conclusion of the tipping section
So the turn begins when you release the edge of the downhill ski with tipping movements--"positive" ones, in the direction you're trying to go. Besides, you can't very well tip the UPhill ski down the hill without moving your downhill leg out of its way. So it all begins with a TIPPING movement of the downhill foot and leg to flatten the ski and release its edge.
... Then a minor linkage to why we must add steering, and finally if there ever was one, the Epic Ski mantra appears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes in conclusion of his steering section
So again, we have to start the movement with the left (downhill) ski tip, to go left. Turn the left tip left to go left; turn the right tip right to go right--how many times have I said these words here in the Forum?
It's crystal clear that the inside ski moves first, whether or not you are either tipping or twisting the skis. The missing lines don't modify these statements whatsoever. The statements are summaries; they are the rules to live by for making the perfect turn!
post #193 of 348
10/29/07 at 1:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
They are moving it out of the way but the other leg can and does move at the same time. The focus is on the inside leg moving but since they are attached at the pelvis moving one moves the other.
Yes, moving one causes the other to follow. I said that back in the beginning. But that is different then intentionally moving both simultaneously.
post #194 of 348
10/29/07 at 1:33pm
MUST, NEEDS, SHOULD, SHOULDN'T, RIGHT, WRONG, GOOD, BAD, FIRST, ALWAYS.

GOOD SKIING TRANSCENDS SUCH ABSOLUTES. :
post #195 of 348
10/29/07 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
MUST, NEEDS, SHOULD, SHOULDN'T, RIGHT, WRONG, GOOD, BAD, FIRST.

GOOD SKIING TRANSCENDS SUCH ABSOLUTES. :
Does it always?
post #196 of 348
10/29/07 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Not at all. The muscles around the joint with either be relaxed or have some tension in them. If you want the kinetic chain to function effeciently then you need some tension.
The most common problem I encounter during teaching intermediate and advanced skiers to carve (arc) is that they do not use their hips correctly. They have been (self)thaught to carve by rolling their ancles onto their edges. But its not the skis that are on an edge that makes you turn, its the combination of your skis being on an edge and your CoM being offset into the turn. The kinetic chain that starts down at the ancles produces IMO a delayed movement of the hips. As you roll your right foot ancle onto its inside edge you produce in the next chain reaction you right foot knee to move inside and thereby your hips are remaining in the same place but in reference to your right foot edge your hips have moved outside. However, if you simultaniously roll your ancle and countermove you get a much much better result. On a 20 second GS course the difference can be up to 5 seconds between a good skier and a lousy one. Ever wonder why slow skiers with good skis still skidd their tails as they carve donw the track? Reason is inferrior technique and there is no reason a recreational skier should not be using the same movementpatterns WC skiers are using.
post #197 of 348
10/29/07 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
MUST, NEEDS, SHOULD, SHOULDN'T, RIGHT, WRONG, GOOD, BAD, FIRST, ALWAYS.

GOOD SKIING TRANSCENDS SUCH ABSOLUTES. :

How does good skiing transcend "good," Rick?
post #198 of 348
10/29/07 at 3:10pm
It is the center of mass that must move inside. When I tip my foot and the knee follws, the CM has moved towards the inside. There is no delay.
post #199 of 348
10/29/07 at 3:23pm
Well said E!
post #200 of 348
10/29/07 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Reason is inferrior technique and there is no reason a recreational skier should not be using the same movementpatterns WC skiers are using.
Here's a data point for you. This summer I had the good fortune to get a few days of training from an elite coach that has something like 20 years of experience working with the US Ski Team. The movement pattern he coaches starts with the feet.
post #201 of 348
10/29/07 at 4:07pm
Starting the turn by tipping the downhill ski does not preclude simultaneous edge change. Sequential edge changes are fine too, do what you like. I still think being on both little toe edges for any significant amount of time is undesirable , there may be a delay that is undetectable to the eye even in frame-by-frame video, it may be in the mind of the skier. I don't know and I don't think it matters. Is tipping the downhill ski the best way to start a turn? Yeah, probably, as far as I know. It works for me.
post #202 of 348
10/29/07 at 4:13pm
Max, you are all about the camera. Show us pictures of skiers using sequential edge change, downhill ski first. Apologies if you have already done so. I can't read the whole thread. I did see a picture of Bode on both inside edges. Have you pictures of skiers on both outside edges?
post #203 of 348
10/29/07 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP Are there any negatives associated with having a mental cue of tipping the inside ski?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Not that I know of.
Then let me give you one. If your focus is always on tipping the outside ski first you will eventually start tipping that new inside ski too much and leading with a higher edge angle than the new outside ski. You will become un-simultaneous.

This is all fine and dandy but it does set you up for one of the nastiest modern ski injuries out there. Max has indicated co-contracting the hip muscles and forward movement these are the other pieces of the puzzle that you need for this injury.

What happens. You are ripping down a wide open blue groomer getting big angles with your CM well inside the turn. You are early and agressive. You habitually tip the inside ski to far and it hits a patch of mush or grippy snow. You are too far inside and have your hip forward and over the sweet spot. Wham that ski hooks up and snap. A compound fracture of the tibia and fibula. A trip on the sled and rod in your leg to put it all back together.

Once the movement pattern of tipping the inside ski is into the unconscious competence stage its best to concentrate on something like flexion and extension or simultaneous leg movements.
post #204 of 348
10/29/07 at 4:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Wham that ski hooks up and snap.
Are you assuming a heavily weighted inside ski?
post #205 of 348
10/29/07 at 4:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If your focus is always on tipping the outside ski first you will eventually start tipping that new inside ski too much and leading with a higher edge angle than the new outside ski. You will become un-simultaneous.
I was looking at the biomechanics of the movement and as far as I can tell tipping the inside foot will bring the outside foot right along to a matching edge angle. Why do you think that would change at some point?
post #206 of 348
10/29/07 at 5:07pm
si·mul·ta·neous
Etymology:
Latin simul at the same time + English -taneous
1. existing or occurring at the same time : exactly coincident

Nothing says that simultaneous movements are identical movements (or did I come in late and that's already been said?).

I even use the movement of holding the inside foot outside edge for an instant (no longer) while I tip the outside foot to its outside edge while I'm on my Harb Carvers®. In these pics, Jay appears to have the inside foot tipped more than the outside foot in shots 4 & 5. I'll never be as good as Jay, but the Carvers are fun and very instructive for the off season. They are unforgiving and show no mercy...skate right or you'll know it.

I'm not sure it's possible to tip the inside foot more than the outside when both are loaded. The muscles to invert (tip to the outside) are weaker than the muscles to evert (tip to the inside).
post #207 of 348
10/29/07 at 5:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Are you assuming a heavily weighted inside ski?
No, its very hard to weight the inside ski when you are really crankin and doing a good job of it.

On the other hand, can you guarantee me that you will never end up with weight on the inside ski?
post #208 of 348
10/29/07 at 5:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I was looking at the biomechanics of the movement and as far as I can tell tipping the inside foot will bring the outside foot right along to a matching edge angle.
If you are exactly correct in your movement pattern, you will match the edge but I would like your guarantee that you will always be on the money in your movements.
Quote:
Why do you think that would change at some point?
cuz I can do it and I have watched others do it.
post #209 of 348
10/29/07 at 5:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
[/i]This is all fine and dandy but it does set you up for one of the nastiest modern ski injuries out there. Max has indicated co-contracting the hip muscles and forward movement these are the other pieces of the puzzle that you need for this injury.

What happens. You are ripping down a wide open blue groomer getting big angles with your CM well inside the turn. You are early and agressive. You habitually tip the inside ski to far and it hits a patch of mush or grippy snow. You are too far inside and have your hip forward and over the sweet spot. Wham that ski hooks up and snap. A compound fracture of the tibia and fibula. A trip on the sled and rod in your leg to put it all back together.

Once the movement pattern of tipping the inside ski is into the unconscious competence stage its best to concentrate on something like flexion and extension or simultaneous leg movements.
If this is a very real danger I think the ultimate goal is to avoid this danger. But what could hook up the inside skis to such extend ? Just some mush or grippy snow will do? If this is the case then are we all in a very high risk if we were not careful enough or not competent enough? I like to explore more about this danger. Anyone want to contribute more?
post #210 of 348
10/29/07 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If you are exactly correct in your movement pattern, you will match the edge but I would like your guarantee that you will always be on the money in your movements.
I'm having a hard time seeing this as an inside ski tipping issue. Seems to me that if you tip both skis at once (or ski from the hips down) you could also cause the inside ski hookup you described. If you go too far, its too far, what difference does the movement used to get there make?
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