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Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping - Page 5  

post #121 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The primary way we move our CM in relation to our skis is through the flexion and extension of our legs.
True dat!
post #122 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
The primary way we move our CM in relation to our skis is through the flexion and extension of our legs.
If we move the focus in that direction the outcome is the hips leading the feet as suggested by tdk6. Its an alternative method.
post #123 of 348
Taken to it's logical conclusion, we should embrace falling to the inside of the turn as the primary movement for turn initiation.

Talk about horsefluff.
post #124 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Exactly. If this is the problem what is the solution?
Given that I see high level skiers do it fairly often and that it appears to correlate to certain tactical decisions and terrain, I'm not comfortable labeling it a problem. I could even make an argument for its function if I were pushed.

Is it a problem for beginning and intermediate skiers who are defensive? Certainly. Is it useful to provide them with the exercise you describe? Probably; it is very similar to what one of the pros in the AAP thread described. That pro was careful to point out that it is an exercise and a way to achieve a goal rather than The Right Way to Do It.

From a philosophical or perceptual standpoint I honestly don't think much about tipping my skis, less so since I read weems thread on platforms. But if tipping is the best way to describe something to the student, more power to the teachers doing so.
post #125 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Would over do what? Also, did you check it with video? What you feel is happening and what is actually happening are likely to be two different things. Video is the great truth teller when it comes to human motion.
I do not need a video camera to tell me that my inside ski is tipped and turning while the outside ski is still going straight ahead. Being a clever fellow with quick reflexes and a good sense of balance I am able to dive into the turn and keep from falling, but clearly what prevents your inside ski from lagging behind, makes my inside ski too early. If I want to make such a drastic turn, I can just dive into it without needing to trip myself with an over-tipped inside ski at initiation.
post #126 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Taken to it's logical conclusion, we should embrace falling to the inside of the turn as the primary movement for turn initiation.

Talk about horsefluff.
This isn't about logical extremes or methods of thinking, it is about dynamics. Fizziks. You and Max have incorrectly surmised that what I described is ski technique. The idea that flexion and extension of our legs is the primary way we move our CM in relation to our skis is not a "method of thinking", it is trivially proven fact, and ironically it is one of the more important things we can prove with kinematics alone in skiing.
post #127 of 348
Actually I rather enjoy falling into the new turn, using gravity and centripetal force. What do you think old outside leg retraction is?
post #128 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
This isn't about logical extremes or methods of thinking, it is about dynamics. Fizziks. You and Max have incorrectly surmised that what I described is ski technique. The idea that flexion and extension of our legs is the primary way we move our CM in relation to our skis is not a "method of thinking", it is trivially proven fact, and ironically it is one of the more important things we can prove with kinematics alone in skiing.
What is being spouted in this thread are several things, many that have no relevance whatsoever to the original concept of simultaneous edge change.

A method to make simultaneous edge change occur was suggested as repositioning of the CM.

What my post was addressing was this notion of edge change being primarily driven by the movement of the CM, and not by the tipping of the skiis. The conlusion being falling to the inside is sufficient.

Not even the CSIA suggests that this is remotely correct. The keynote speaker at last Professional development day I attended spent considerable time discrediting the notion of "falling to the inside" as valid technique. (Fun though it may be....)

Yet, here we have here repositioning of the CM offered as the technique for simultaneous edge change. Which further discredits a methodogy that suggests simultaneous edge change does not occur .

Well then, don't forget to discredit the CSIA too, for not understanding that edging skills come primarily from repositioning the CM.
post #129 of 348
Hand waving is not enough. Let's obfuscate things some more by bringing in angulation to divorce edging from cm positioning. And while we're at it let's bring in some learned organization that agrees with our statement, only let's not use logic when proof by professorial intimidation is available.:
post #130 of 348
Isn't this about the best response for someone like Paul in Ask a Pro? Paul said (and I can't quote because this is only my 3rd post and I'm not comfortable with all the options here and going between threads) that there's something scary about tipping without twisting, and that he's apprehensive about it. I don't mean to sell Paul short, but isn't he asking about drills and ONE thing (maybe two) to think about when transitioning into a new turn? It IS scary to lose the platform of the old outside BTE! It is relatively easy to shift to the platform of the LTE of the new outside ski. Given what I have read here while lurking, there seem to be negatives associated with merely shifting one's platform to the LTE of the old inside ski -- i.e., you don't want to step onto or push off from the old outside ski, shift CM uphill to start the turn, or force yourself into the turn in a way that requires reliance on the new inside ski for balance.

Are there any negatives associated with having a mental cue of tipping the inside ski? If the inside ski is tipped while remaining in contact with the snow, however light, does the outside ski not follow? My personal experience, which means nothing compared to the knowledge and experience of everyone else here, is that the weighted outside ski nicely mirrors the tipping of the inside ski, but it doesn't work the other way.

DEP

DEP
post #131 of 348
Don't sell yourself short DEP. I think what you've said there makes a lot of sense. Welcome to the non-lurking side of EpicSki by the way.
post #132 of 348
I thought it was about simultaneous edge change versus one ski tipping first, "Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first." I pretty much agree with the statement.

However if you want to talk about the other thread......

Yes, tipping onto both edges without angulating, (or falling into the turn) can be quite scary, and it may even result in disaster especially if not enough forward momentum is built up. Tipping that old outside, new inside ski while not worrying about the other ski can assuage that fear.

The negative? Tip it too far too fast and you're going for a dive.

Alternatives? Move forward as much as sideways while allowing yourself to cross over both skis and let the skis adopt a new shape before moving too far inside the turn.

Others?
post #133 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Hand waving is not enough. Let's obfuscate things some more by bringing in angulation to divorce edging from cm positioning. And while we're at it let's bring in some learned organization that agrees with our statement, only let's not use logic when proof by professorial intimidation is available.:
That helps alot.

Thanks.
post #134 of 348
Sorry about that, BigE.

I guess I let me distaste of proof by appeal to authority get the better of me.

It's not the position of the cm that sets the edge angles; it's the position of the hips, femurs, tibia and femur. Tipping the skis does not cause the position of the tib-fib; positioning of the tib-fib causes the skis to tip.

To me it's not about credit or discredit; it's just about the facts (and the theories).
post #135 of 348
It depends on which end of the kinetic chain you wish to work with.

If I try to lift my big toe edge, I can do that with foot movements alone.

If I REALLY try to lift it with foot movements alone, the knee necessarily moves to the side and the femur rotates in my hip socket. I did not attempt to lift the big toe edge by moving the knee/rotating the femur. I find that option tends to result in overshoot.

What is acheived by focussing on tipping the foot? Your sense of positioning of the foot is increased. You give your feet the chance to adapt to the load they will carry, and you provide a target platform upon which to balance.

Moving the CM first does not prepare the target platform. Technically, when moving the CM first, you are out of balance. In a practical sense, you are unable to apply pressure as the skis are not first put onto edge. (Which is why stemming can be so attractive - moving from the safety of one medial edge to the safety of another...)

I have to find some video. This thread is useless without video.
post #136 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I thought it was about simultaneous edge change versus one ski tipping first,

"Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first."

I pretty much agree with the statement.
And I completely disagree with the statement. Why? Because skiing does not have to be simultaneous leg usage and more often than not probably isn't.

Take a step back and ask yourself how you teach simultaneous leg usage? Is it really even possible given the different alignment, length, and muscle strength in the average pair of legs?

To further complicate matters, its far easier to tip towards the big toe edge. What I have seen is that when students try to tip simultaneously they often end up with greater edge angle on the new stance ski as compared to the inside ski (not to mention the skidding and tail pushing outcomes).

Tipping the old stance ski first addresses all of those issues. So, why not do it?
post #137 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
A method to make simultaneous edge change occur was suggested as repositioning of the CM.
My take on that: There isn't much a human can do to change the path of their CM without an interaction between a carefully placed hand or foot and a surface. We can to some extent change our orientation about our CM with clever use of our various bits of inertia, but even those interesting things people do in the air start on the ramp or diving board.

If you stand normal to the hill while traveling across it (on a hill of shallow enough pitch that you can actually do this without edging or falling over) you will end up in the fall line. Most of the time you'll want to turn more quickly than this. You use your skis and limbs in clever ways to make this happen. Sometimes you'll want to travel across the hill for an extended period of time and then quickly turn. You'll again use your skis and limbs in clever but somewhat different ways. (hint: maybe you won't simultaneously change edges...) In all cases you move limbs in relation to your CM. To think of it the other way around is to not grasp the concept of a center of mass.
Quote:
Tipping the old stance ski first addresses all of those issues. So, why not do it?
Because thinking it is one thing, doing it is a mechanically awkward, inefficient, and bad for balance.
post #138 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
Are there any negatives associated with having a mental cue of tipping the inside ski?
Not that I know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
If the inside ski is tipped while remaining in contact with the snow, however light, does the outside ski not follow? My personal experience, which means nothing compared to the knowledge and experience of everyone else here, is that the weighted outside ski nicely mirrors the tipping of the inside ski, but it doesn't work the other way.
Very well said. And you can even lift and tip and the outside ski will follow.
post #139 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The lag depends on how fast your CM is moving into the turn. You don't tip the new outside ski, rather you let it be tipped.
What's the problem if I tip both as in sync as possible?
post #140 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
To me it's not about credit or discredit; it's just about the facts (and the theories).
I really feel sorry for Max when he posts.

Everytime he says "I do it like this...." there is a knee-jerk reaction where folks attempt to discredit the system that taught him to ski. The absurdity of some of the postings people make to try to do so is truly Epic. It would be a laughable situation if he could not actually ski, but in fact he does ski quite well.

It's as if there is a fatwah against his technique, including movements that are being taught by traditional ski schools. I find it bizarre.

It's too bad really.
post #141 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Technically, when moving the CM first, you are out of balance.
LOL, worse than that. Try not in this particular universe.

/unless you are using a different frame of reference I'm having difficulty conceiving of at the moment.
post #142 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
If I REALLY try to lift it with foot movements alone, the knee necessarily moves to the side and the femur rotates in my hip socket. I did not attempt to lift the big toe edge by moving the knee/rotating the femur.
I guess it boils down to if you are conscious that you are moving your knee and femur while you are lifting your edge. There is no way for me not to move my knee when lifting one edge of my foot without rolling the ankle, and it is not possible for me to lift the lte or bte off the floor without moving my knee and fibula while wearing my Koflachs because they do not let the ankle move in that plane (the Solly's are almost as restrictive in that plane).
post #143 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garret
Because thinking it is one thing, doing it is a mechanically awkward, inefficient, and bad for balance.
I am now certain that the whole notion of tipping the inside foot is being completely misunderstood.

I'm done.

Goodnight.
post #144 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
There is no way for me not to move my knee when lifting one edge of my foot without rolling the ankle, and it is not possible for me to lift the lte or bte off the floor without moving my knee and fibula while wearing my Koflachs because they do not let the ankle move in that plane (the Solly's are almost as restrictive in that plane).
If you co-contract the hip joint when you tip what do think will happen?

Some ankle movement is beneficial for balance and fine tuning movements.
post #145 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
LOL, worse than that. Try not in this particular universe.

/unless you are using a different frame of reference I'm having difficulty conceiving of at the moment.
It's called inertia and you know it.
post #146 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Because thinking it is one thing, doing it is a mechanically awkward, inefficient, and bad for balance.
Interesting statement. Not something I agree with though and neither would any of the coaches I know.
post #147 of 348
My, what fun taking statements out of context can be!!
post #148 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you co-contract the hip joint when you tip what do think will happen?
Not sure what you mean by that, but I guess that's one way to move my femur and the knee attached to the end of it and thus affect tipping. Rotating the femur in the hip socket works too. Not sure where you're headed with this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Some ankle movement is beneficial for balance and fine tuning movements.
Yes. I appreciate that. I had lots of ankle movement in my first pair of leather ski boots. I still would rather have the Koflachs on while maching an icy run on my SGs.
post #149 of 348
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Not sure what you mean by that, but I guess that's one way to move my femur and the knee attached to the end of it and thus affect tipping. Rotating the femur in the hip socket works too. Not sure where you're headed with this
If I tip with a relaxed hip joint the femur will rotate which points the knee. This would not be the desired outcome.

On the other hand, if I tip with a co-contracted hip joint I start a chain reaction (via the kinetic chain) that leads the hip into the turn. The more I tip the more I move the hip into the turn. The faster I tip the quicker the hip drops into the turn.

Its simple and very effective.
post #150 of 348
Max, I think I misunderstood your question about skiing from the hip down, I though you meant skiing without using the upper body as a turning force like rotation/counter=rotation.

What I meant was that the skiing action involved the lower body from the hip down with the upper body doing whatever is necessary to balance.

As far as hip down or skis up I don' separate the two, everything from the hip to the foot sole is involved at the same time, in other words I don't do it piece meal. Everything works in unison but I don't really think about it while skiing, I think about that pitcher of beer :

This thread is about nit picking of mostly inconsequential things, we all can ski doing what the terrain and snow conditions call for, I think it would be unwise to try to force one way of doing things in every turn.

....Ott
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