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Simultaneous tipping vs independent ski tipping  

post #1 of 348
10/27/07 at 7:07pm
Thread Starter 
The following advice was offered in the Ask a Ski Pro forum. I'm wondering what you think of it?

Quote:
Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first.
post #2 of 348
10/27/07 at 8:34pm
Since I can't delete: I want to know too .
post #3 of 348
10/27/07 at 8:51pm
I would have advised him to just stand on his toes and then tip onto the ball of the outside foot and the little toe edge of the inside foot while standing on the floor, and then imagine his skis are his feet and to do the same with his edges. His problem seems to stem from him leaning over with the skis still straight. A little old-school pressure to bend the tips along with the idea of using the edges to move him would help him a lot.
Which ski to move first? Seems like he's stuck in a stem-christy, and with too much emphasis on pivoting. I'm lucky I skipped all those lessons. If I tell you to stand on the edges of the balls of your feet, do I need to tell you which one to stand on first for you to be able to do it?

I suppose you would have him tip the inside ski first, along with inside foot pull-back Max? That would be my second option if the first didn't work, reason being if he is already (after first advise) making the right moves simultaneously trying to tip and pull back the inside foot would over do it.
post #4 of 348
10/27/07 at 9:05pm
Always turn the left ski first.

We'll call it guided discovery.

At the end of the season, post and let us know how it worked for you!
post #5 of 348
10/28/07 at 1:43am
Max what's your point ? Copying that question over from the OP's orig posting from the ask the ski pro forum & putting it up here for anyone's comments or to open up comments on advice you did not solicit yourself just makes me cranky.
post #6 of 348
10/28/07 at 1:58am
Okay, so I'm over my crankiness now. I'm sensing a bit of passive/aggressiveness from the title of this thread & the op question/comment. So what's the deal ? Do you just not like the Ask the Ski Pro forum? Because you can't comment in it & make a long old never ending never resolved thread out of it ? Or do you just not want to use the Pro forum for your own questions but you just can't stay out of it ? Don't try and undermine the purpose of the Ask the Pro forum by re-posting like this. Oops, I went from calling it like I'm reading it to cranky again ! Darn, hate when that happens.
post #7 of 348
10/28/07 at 3:53am
I saw the original post as well, and I was surprised by some of the answers. I haven't fully digested everything said there yet, but on the surface it did seem to be in disagreement with Bob Barnes' "left tip left to go left, right tip right to go right" mantra. i.e., get your inside ski moving first.
post #8 of 348
10/28/07 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Do you just not like the Ask the Ski Pro forum?
I think its a great idea and I suggested it ages ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Because you can't comment in it & make a long old never ending never resolved thread out of it ?
Nah, its not a place for me. The system I have learned contradicts that of too many traditional pros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Don't try and undermine the purpose of the Ask the Pro forum by re-posting like this.
Having people analyze questions and answers from the Ask a Pro forum is a great way to learn and gain a better understanding of the different approaches to skiing. I don't see how it would undermine anything, in fact, back when we had the public debate over a closed forum we specifically talked about being able to mirror a thread in the closed forum in the open forums for everyone else to post in.
post #9 of 348
10/28/07 at 7:02am
One of the main differences you are going to see in Ask a Ski Pro is that the answers are going to be decidedly non technical in nature. Justanotherskipro is not just another ski pro. His handle is very misleading.

JASP is correct in thinking of movements as one. The idea of moving the left tip left to go left and the right tip right to go right is in-an-of itself, an exaggeration to try to break the habit of twisting the new outside ski into a skid. After that movement is ingrained, we all tend towards simultaneous movement.

Do we know if Paul is twisting his outside ski? Well from his description it does not sound like he is doing that because he has trouble letting go and moving with the flow or once he does let go, he has trouble stopping the flow.

What you have to realize is that the answers in Ask a Ski Pro are too the point, for that person, based on the information given. They are not answers for open debate or discussion.

Max, depending on the questions asked in, Ask a Ski Pro, you may very well see PMTS like answers. I think JASP's answer may very well give a big breakthrough to Paul. If that information does give Paul a breakthrough and he comes back with more pointed questions, you may very well see completely different answers.
post #10 of 348
10/28/07 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
JASP is correct in thinking of movements as one. The idea of moving the left tip left to go left and the right tip right to go right is in-an-of itself, an exaggeration to try to break the habit of twisting the new outside ski into a skid. After that movement is ingrained, we all tend towards simultaneous movement.
This is not what I do or what I have learned. I have learned the new inside ski always leads the tipping.

One of the reasons is because it takes significantly greater muscle effort and commitment to get the inside ski to match the angle of the outside ski. If the movements are simultaneous the outside ski will often end up on edge (and turning) before the inside ski.
post #11 of 348
10/28/07 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This is not what I do or what I have learned. I have learned the new inside ski always leads the tipping.

One of the reasons is because it takes significantly greater muscle effort and commitment to get the inside ski to match the angle of the outside ski. If the movements are simultaneous the outside ski will often end up on edge (and turning) before the inside ski.
I use to argue this point and going back a few years in the archives will produce threads where I was as vehement as you.

I could not help but notice that answers from nolo, weems and Bob Barnes were never as intense yet produced much more favorable response from the questioner. People are not machines nor are most of them technical in nature. It is not about how technical you are in your delivery as it is in how you present that technical information. Understanding from a technical nature and being able to present that information in a very smooth and understandable way is what separates a great instructor from a top notch instructor. I have mellowed in order to become that top notch instructor.

Now JASP presented his answer a bit too vague on the first attempt and has since needed to clarify what he meant in order for Paul to get a more accurate picture. On snow, JASP may very well adjust and suggest the very information you are so vehement about but based on Paul's question, I don't think JASP's answer is way out of line.

As you well know, I am not a dissident of HH, I like his work.
post #12 of 348
10/28/07 at 7:41am
>>>> If the movements are simultaneous the outside ski will often end up on edge (and turning) before the inside ski.<<<

Max, are you serious? Simultaneous in skiing means 'at the same time, the same way', thus in a transition the skis are released from both of their inside edges at the same time the same way and reapplied at the same time at the same angle whatever it may be, no way is one ski starting to turn before the other, that can come by jamming the outside ski hard with all the weight on it leaving the inside ski momentarily without guiding input. It isn't hard to correct that, but sometimes it has to be done.

If one ski is doing something different than the other it isn't 'simultaneous'.

...Ott
post #13 of 348
10/28/07 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Max, are you serious?
Yes, very much so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl View Post
Simultaneous in skiing means 'at the same time, the same way', thus in a transition the skis are released from both of their inside edges at the same time the same way and reapplied at the same time at the same angle whatever it may be, no way is one ski starting to turn before the other...
Yes that is the traditional thinking on the subject. However, that is not how I do it nor is it how I am currently coached to do it.
post #14 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Now JASP presented his answer a bit too vague on the first attempt and has since needed to clarify what he meant in order for Paul to get a more accurate picture.
OK, how do you feel about this statement?

Quote:
Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first.
post #15 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Don't try and undermine the purpose of the Ask the Pro forum by re-posting like this.

It's my understanding that the purpose of the tech forum was to have a place where you could dissect/go into more a more detailed exploration of the topic than is appropriate in the Ask a Pro forum.

Allowing that discussion in the threads of Ask a Pro would dilute and undermine the advice. It is entirely appropriate to start a thread here outside of Ask a Pro to have that disscusion.
post #16 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It's my understanding that the purpose of the tech forum was to have a place where you could dissect/go into more a more detailed exploration of the topic than is appropriate in the Ask a Pro forum.

Allowing that discussion in the threads of Ask a Pro would dilute and undermine the advice. It is entirely appropriate to start a thread here outside of Ask a Pro to have that disscusion.
The result is the same though. This thread will undoubtedly go on for four or five pages dissecting five or six words. Or maybe the real intent is to undermine the Ask a Ski Pro forum.
post #17 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post
Or maybe the real intent is to undermine the Ask a Ski Pro forum.
How can it be undermined from way over here? I don't understand that thinking.

Sounds like some people think that the info that gets put up in Ask a Ski Pro should be immune from outside analysis.
post #18 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Having people analyze questions and answers from the Ask a Pro forum is a great way to learn and gain a better understanding of the different approaches to skiing. I don't see how it would undermine anything, in fact, back when we had the public debate over a closed forum we specifically talked about being able to mirror a thread in the closed forum in the open forums for everyone else to post in.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
The idea of moving the left tip left to go left and the right tip right to go right is in-an-of itself, an exaggeration to try to break the habit of twisting the new outside ski into a skid.
A perfect example. If you are moving your left foot to the left, what you are doing with your right foot without even thinking about it is pushing the against the ground. It's a sneaky way to get someone to use the inside edge of the outside ski without turning it into a premature push off. I never realized that before. I was so : at it being an instruction to rotate the left ski that I overlooked the effect it had on stopping rotation of the the right one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This is not what I do or what I have learned. I have learned the new inside ski always leads the tipping.

One of the reasons is because it takes significantly greater muscle effort and commitment to get the inside ski to match the angle of the outside ski. If the movements are simultaneous the outside ski will often end up on edge (and turning) before the inside ski.
If movements are simultaneous the outside ski will end up on edge and turning at the exact same time as the inside ski. That's what simultaneous means!

And that's just it. You need to think about tipping the inside ski first in order to tip your skis simultaneously. I learned to tip my skis together without giving a special consideration to tipping the inside ski first. If I follow instructions to tip the inside ski to initiate a turn, I end up with the inside ski being ahead, and get out of synch. Different people follow instructions to a different degree, some are more like a computer programed machine than others. Some have different programs built in.
post #19 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:33am
Consider this Max, simultaneous is a simple one word way of saying that when one part moves, all parts move, all driven by the same intent. the external focus or internal body focus we use to instigate or trigger this symphony of movement is not in opposition to nor does it preclude the idea of all or nothing movement with a single intent in mind. It is just that, a triggering focus that starts up the symphony of movement and continues as it helps to keep the parts playing in harmony together. This is my take on being simultaneous in skiing.

The answers in that thread in the pro forum where to a specific person. My post in particular was after a couple of exchanges had taken place so was intended to specifically build on what was already being discussed. Nothing more and nothing less. Why concern yourself Max?
post #20 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
OK, how do you feel about this statement?
Quote:
Just remember that there needs to be simultaneous leg usage which precludes using one foot first, or one leg first.
Max, you are a very good skier and have a good understanding of the mechanics behind skiing. I admire your enthusiasm for helping others but you delivery of that information is a one size fits all. Most of the population is not like you and does not flourish on a totally movements based system of teaching.

I think you will find that most of the pros listed on Ask A Ski Pro are not in disagreement with the above statement. I heard this same statement from some of the pros I most admire on this forum. This statement is not based on a movements type approach to skiing but on a concepts based, brilliant skiing approach. That approach has wider appeal among the skiing population than does a movement based approach. One size does not fit all.

Max you have much to offer but your delivery is narrowly focused and argumentative at times. You come across to many like a broken record. I certainly do not want to step on your enthusiasm or your willingness to help other skiers but soften your approach. Learn to say the same thing ten different ways then condense those answers to one. Clarify if need be when you feel you are being misunderstood and soon you will be giving answers in the Ask A Ski Pro section.

The question for an enthusiastic poster like you really is “do you want to reach more people or do you want to hold fast to a set presentation?”
post #21 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
A perfect example. If you are moving your left foot to the left, what you are doing with your right foot without even thinking about it is pushing the against the ground. It's a sneaky way to get someone to use the inside edge of the outside ski without turning it into a premature push off. I never realized that before. I was so : at it being an instruction to rotate the left ski that I overlooked the effect it had on stopping rotation of the the right one.
Thank you Ghost. This illustrates presenting technical information in a way that someone can grasp it, sneaky or not. Ghost is right, this is a way to get someone to sumultaneous leg motions.

Can we ever be totally sumultaneous? No but if we have to err, lets err on the side of tip the free foot first.
post #22 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
And that's just it. You need to think about tipping the inside ski first in order to tip your skis simultaneously.
I tip my inside ski first, it literally leads. It is not simultaneous. The outside lags a bit.
post #23 of 348
10/28/07 at 8:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Can we ever be totally sumultaneous? No but if we have to err, lets err on the side of tip the free foot first.
Exactly. And if you teach the average person to move simultaneously they will end up moving the outside ski onto the inside ski too aggressively due to biomechanics. Video proves that this is the case much of the time.
post #24 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Exactly. And if you teach the average person to move simultaneously they will end up moving the outside ski onto the inside ski too aggressively due to biomechanics. Video proves that this is the case much of the time.
Max, this is a blanket statement begging for an exception and there are more exceptions to your statement in real teaching than true facts. One size does not fit all, try someone bow legged, aligned or no.
post #25 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Most of the population is not like you and does not flourish on a totally movements based system of teaching.
What data are you basing the above statement on? I'm asking because I have been taught that the opposite it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
his statement is not based on a movements type approach to skiing but on a concepts based, brilliant skiing approach. That approach has wider appeal among the skiing population than does a movement based approach.
Again, what data is there that suggests that the concept based approach has a wider appeal? One could easily argue that the best skiers come out of movement based programs (racing, comp bumps, etc...)
post #26 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I tip my inside ski first, it literally leads. It is not simultaneous. The outside lags a bit.
Ok. I have an open mind.
1. Explain why having the inside ski on edge before the outside ski is tipped might be a good thing other than it prevents the reverse (I do think it's fairly obvious that tipping the outside ski before the inside ski is a bad thing (caught edges, running over the inside ski with the outside ski, spireal fractures, etc).

2. If it is appropriate to have the outside ski lagging a bit, what would be considered too much lag time and why?
post #27 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Max, this is a blanket statement begging for an exception and there are more exceptions to your statement in real teaching than true facts. One size does not fit all, try someone bow legged, aligned or no.
OK, sure, bow legged without alignment is one exception. But after the skier is properly aligned the statement is valid (I'm nearly 4 degrees bow legged in my right leg).
post #28 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
How can it be undermined from way over here? I don't understand that thinking.
When you Take the original person's question and make it the title for your new thread. If that poster wanted to ask the question there, they would have.

Sounds like some people think that the info that gets put up in Ask a Ski Pro should be immune from outside analysis.[/quote]

You are looking at it from the wrong direction. I doubt anyone is concerned you would put a ski pro's advice/explaination up for dissection. Isn't that pretty much what occurs in the tech section anyhow ? Come up with your own thread title to do so though, don't steal someone elses from that forum area.

See post #20, paragraph 3. Pierre is giving you wise & kind advice. Take it.
post #29 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
One could easily argue that the best skiers come out of movement based programs (racing, comp bumps, etc...)
One could easily argue that that is due to the quantity of training vs. the quality of training.
post #30 of 348
10/28/07 at 9:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
One could easily argue that that is due to the quantity of training vs. the quality of training.
If a racer spends all of their time performing incorrect movements they are very unlikely to end up on the podium.
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