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Boot out? Really? - Page 3

post #61 of 93
Roto,

If they were coming back to parallel, the tips would be pointing at each other -- they'd be converging, they would not be "diverging less" unless they were above apex. HH's turn , judging from the slope, is pretty much complete.

Max could just be holding on a touch longer.

The tip divergence looks to me like an early weight shift. The turn radius of the outside ski will increase if weight is transferred to the uphill leg, unless additional edge angle is added.

I would think that almost right after that shot was taken that the outside leg was vigourously flexed.
post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
A boot out will feel literally violent like someone ripped the rug out from under you in a violent way.
Bing - we have a winner.

I first booted out while snowboarding. When riding, you know you've booted out because you can readily feel your heel or toe making snow contact a fraction of a second before you get dumped. The experience is best described as "Huh? Wham!". I usually get dumped after booting out when riding because of the drag of the boot and the offset of the contact point from the base of support, although sometimes you can feel the drag and bail before you get in trouble. Ski boots are slipperier. Most of the time ski boots will either skid on snow or bounce versus catching in the snow like soft snowboard boots will do. The loss of edgehold and the release of turning force is virtually instantaneous. When the Elan SCX's first came out, I booted out a few times right in the fall line and it scared the crap out of me because you'd literally instantly pop sideways 10-15 feet closer to the woods. The same thing would happen if you hit uneven terrain and caught tiny air in the middle of your carve, but it was easy to tell the difference by feel (e.g. whoop vs huh). When snowblading, I usually get dumped when booting out either because my butt is already so close to the snow or because I'm trying to cheat to get higher edge angles.

For me boot out always happens with the outside ski. I don't make ripped turns with enough weight on my inside ski to make a difference if it loses edge hold.

I never booted out before shaped skis. I have not booted out on skis since using plates.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I believe the widely accepted & only definition of "boot-out" is that the outside ski is at such an extreme edge angle, that the outside ski boot contacts the snow hard enough to cause that ski to lose it's edge hold completley.
While this is the common def I would expect, there is at least one other I am aware of.

I have seen a similar boot-out effect where the boots contact each other, with the outside boot levering against the inside one and suddenly releasing the outside ski. Like a narrow base parallogram completly closing as angles increase.

This pseudo-boot-out is the combined result of a narrow stance to start with and not adjusting it and creating enough vertical seperation of the skis/boots by retracting the inside leg at max angles.

Different interpritation of the same net result, a crash. :
post #64 of 93

Some WC racers grind outsides of boots

Some WC racers grind outsides of boots and move lower buckles so they don't boot out. There was an article in ski racing about a couple seaons ago.
post #65 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordtheBarbarian View Post
Some WC racers grind outsides of boots and move lower buckles so they don't boot out. There was an article in ski racing about a couple seaons ago.
I've seen this.

I've never seen anyone try and make the medial side of the boot protrude less.

"Boot out" on medial side of outside boot still = BS.
Quote:
I have seen a similar boot-out effect where the boots contact each other
Let us not use arcane terminology for simple errors. That one is called:

post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
While this is the common def I would expect, there is at least one other I am aware of.

I have seen a similar boot-out effect where the boots contact each other, with the outside boot levering against the inside one and suddenly releasing the outside ski. Like a narrow base parallogram completly closing as angles increase.

This pseudo-boot-out is the combined result of a narrow stance to start with and not adjusting it and creating enough vertical seperation of the skis/boots by retracting the inside leg at max angles.

Different interpritation of the same net result, a crash. :
Arc,

Sorry but your scenario describes nothing more then losuy skiing.

"Boot out" is not caused by striking your boots together. that is just lousy skiing. I would maybe call it Narrow stance-itis,
leaning in, crossing your skis maybe.

Boot out is when your boot hits the snow due to extreme edge angles and causes the loss of edge contact. On the contrary in order for this to happen you are skiing your ass off, not making some rookie mistake!
post #67 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Boot out is when your boot hits the snow due to extreme edge angles and causes the loss of edge contact. On the contrary in order for this to happen you are skiing your ass off, not making some rookie mistake!
I agree. In addition, you can still get some decent angles without booting out, even making this rookie mistake, as demonstrated in the following pic (left shows very little vertical separation, right shows proper amount of vertical separation):

post #68 of 93
I would say that if you have narrow race or plug boots and you have 50mm of raise underneath your boots, hard snow and good and well tuned skis then you can not boot out no matter how low your angles are. Max and HH's angles are not even close to boot out. In WC skiing there is very seldome boot out. Sometimes as they put too much weight on the inside ski and it slips they fall towards the inside and that can be misstaken for boot out.
post #69 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Arc,

Sorry but your scenario describes nothing more then losuy skiing.

"Boot out" is not caused by striking your boots together. that is just lousy skiing. I would maybe call it Narrow stance-itis,
leaning in, crossing your skis maybe.

Boot out is when your boot hits the snow due to extreme edge angles and causes the loss of edge contact. On the contrary in order for this to happen you are skiing your ass off, not making some rookie mistake!
sorry, but your reply indicates you did not really read mine..........
post #70 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
sorry, but your reply indicates you did not really read mine..........
I think we're all on the same page regarding booting out on your other boot (tripping over your own feet in layman's terms). Atomicman probably doesn't know what pseudo means ( just kidding A-man). I like Garrett's illustration but I'd feel more comfortable if the rifle was pointed up in the air rather than at the lateral side of the soldier's inside boot.
post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
I think we're all on the same page regarding booting out on your other boot (tripping over your own feet in layman's terms). Atomicman probably doesn't know what pseudo means ( just kidding A-man). I like Garrett's illustration but I'd feel more comfortable if the rifle was pointed up in the air rather than at the lateral side of the soldier's inside boot.
telerod, ya mean like pseudo-intellectual
post #72 of 93
Uh, thanks for the complement if you're calling me a pseudo-intellectual. I aspire to that. I was referring to Arcmeister's term pseudo-boot-out. He is saying that knocking boots is sometimes called boot out but it's not really boot out.
post #73 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
Uh, thanks for the complement if you're calling me a pseudo-intellectual. I aspire to that. I was referring to Arcmeister's term pseudo-boot-out. He is saying that knocking boots is sometimes called boot out but it's not really boot out.
I was joking with ya!

Yes, I know what he meant but no it is really not.
post #74 of 93
So we all agree on that. The division over whether boot out is more likely to happen to the inside or outside ski is interesting though. Good thread.
post #75 of 93
"sorry, but your reply indicates you did not really read mine.........."

Now there's a line that could come in handy in a lot of threads around here!
post #76 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
"sorry, but your reply indicates you did not really read mine.........."

Now there's a line that could come in handy in a lot of threads around here!
i read Arc's post and understood it.

Just thought the part about skiing too narrow and having your boots hit each other was not germane to the thread even if he called it Pseudo-Boot Out!
post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
i read Arc's post and understood it.

Just thought the part about skiing too narrow and having your boots hit each other was not germane to the thread even if he called it Pseudo-Boot Out!
A-man, what's going on here.... We are more and more on the same page.

I'm a sceared!
post #78 of 93
I was commenting on the general usefullness of that line, not whether it was correct in this case. I have noted several different threads where is seemed clear everyone was so anxious to talk they didn't bother to read.

Maybe it should be an emoticon...
post #79 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
A-man, what's going on here.... We are more and more on the same page.

I'm a sceared!
Maybe Rod Serling is lurking around here:

I think we're in like?:
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Boot out is when your boot hits the snow due to extreme edge angles and causes the loss of edge contact.
So if you boot digs a little trench beside your ski instead of lifting your ski off its edge, this is just boot, not boot out:.
post #81 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
So if you boot digs a little trench beside your ski instead of lifting your ski off its edge, this is just boot, not boot out:.
I would have to answer yes. it has to knock you off your edge to be boot out.

I mean are you looking down at your boot watching it dig this little trench?

How would you know until it is extreme enough to knock you on your ass?

So, when your boot being in contact with the snow knocks your ski off edge and now your ass is digging a BIG trench in the snow, that is boot OUT!
post #82 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I would have to answer yes. it has to knock you off your edge to be boot out.

I mean are you looking down at your boot watching it dig this little trench?

How would you know until it is extreme enough to knock you on your ass?

So, when your boot being in contact with the snow knocks your ski off edge and now your ass is digging a BIG trench in the snow, that is boot OUT!
I peaked once or twice for 1/10th of a second in softer snow; I was very careful not to repeat same on ice. FYI about 125 mm wide at the ball Koflachs, 68 mm wide VERY long radius Kästles, no lifter plates, big angle, speed about what it takes to make your eyes water if you don't tape over the vent holes on your gogles, even wearing glasses under them.
post #83 of 93
Boot pulls the edge out of the snow.

K?
post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Boot pulls the edge out of the snow.

K?
Yeah, I got it. Atomic man explained it pretty well. I've never booted out. When I feel the boot touching the ice I ease up, just like when the muffler touches down on the bike.
post #85 of 93
This thread is useless without video.
post #86 of 93
Watched the mens Sölden WC GS today on TV and there were angles we can only dream of. And no boot out. It looks like it is impossible for the WC skiers to get a boot out on the outside ski. I stand by my statement that if you have narrow boots, FIS standheight and you ski on solid hard groomed snow with good skis that have properly tuned edges there is no way you can get a boot out. If you have trouble with boot out in softer snow get yourself 60mm raise over snow.
post #87 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
This thread is useless without video.
I agree....
post #88 of 93
I think the discussion in this thread provide a very good understanding of what boot out is. If we were to look for evidence should a suspected boot out happen. What might be solid evidence to tell if its a boot out or if it were anything else?
post #89 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I think the discussion in this thread provide a very good understanding of what boot out is. If we were to look for evidence should a suspected boot out happen. What might be solid evidence to tell if its a boot out or if it were anything else?
carver_hk I experience real boot out back in the days of telemark skiing where we were on leather boots, very skinny skis, no risers and Chouinard three pin bindings.

The feel is instantaneous snow snakes ripping you off your feet. You can summise what happened but you never see it comming.

I have never experienced boot out on Alpine skis unless I hit a rock, a stump, frozen death cookie or something with the boot.
post #90 of 93
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