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"watch where your going!!!" - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Even though the highway analogy seems to be logical, I don't think it holds up. On the highway, we have lanes and speed limits and generally understood ways that we all drive (most of the time, anyway).
Bob, you must not live in Colorado??? Try driving I25 from Denver to Ft. Collins!!!

I do agree with Bob and everyone else about the uphill skiers responsibility. If you're not good enough to avoid ANY situation that could possibly happen in front of you then you need to slow down!! However Bob also brought to light an interesting thing. . . .If someone does stop in the middle of the road for no reason, shouldn't they (and they are) be ticketed if it causes an accident? The highways, interstates and most other major roadways provide approptiate areas for pulling over when necessary. Likewise if you going down the road and someone suddenly cut's in front. Isn't it technically their fault?? More so at an intersection. Perhaps we should put Stop and Yeild signs at intersecting trails??? :

I don't think that the uphill skiers responsibility should change, but I do think that more emphisis needs to be put on what a downhill skiers responsibility is too. One of which is to be aware of whats going on uphill and watch for the idiots who aren't watching you!!!
post #32 of 54
shifty -

Advanced Concepts?
Were you intentionally trying to be a dick there or are you one of those people who doesn't even know why they piss people off?

__________________________________________________ ______

Bob -
Sorry, I don't agree with your disagreement.

Whether you're on the highway or on the slopes, if you aren't alone then you have to take everyone else into account as you move along. You do this subconsciously but still, you are calculating everyone elses speed and vector, then plotting a safe track among them.

If someone suddenly does something COMPLETELY different, without any warning, then he has to bear some responsibility for bringing it upon himself.

That doesn't mean that the guy uphill doesn't have the majority of the responsibility by virtue of his position, but if I'm skiing down a crowded hill, going through a narrow spot and someone in front of me who was doing simple, lazy S turns does a sudden sharp jerk to the right and stops right in front of me I suddenly have a problem I didn't create. Now maybe I have time to compensate for your unexpected move, but maybe I don't. Or maybe it's either hit YOU or hit the 9 year old kid passing me on the left, or the tree that you stopped next to.

Hey, if you're the only other person on a big hill and I manage to hit you from behind then that's on me.

If we're on a crowded hill and you did something stupid without even bothering to so much as look over your shoulder for an instant, then don't plan on complaining to me.

You wouldn't just come flying onto the highway from an entrance ramp without looking over your shoulder, would you?
post #33 of 54
The "highway analogy" doesn't work. True, if somebody stops in front of you on the highway, they're probably pretty stupid, but if you rear-end that person, you're at fault because you were following too closely and probably wern't traveling at the proper speed for the given traffic conditions. The same applies to conditions on the slopes. If you're skiing at high speed through the bunny slope, there's a problem. (On my hill you have to ski through the learning area to get to two of the advanced lifts) No mater what, if you're uphill of somebody and run into them, the ski patroller is going to hold you responsible. The first day I ever skied, I fell on my back and slid into a snowboarder who was sitting in the middle of a busy run. I was told to be more careful in the future and sent on my way. Probably the only reason I didn't get into more trouble was because the guy was sitting on his butt admiring the view. Everybody has a responsibility to be safe and obey the rules, but untill cloning or DNA alterations allow skiers to have eyes placed in a continuous ring around their heads, the uphill skier has the ultimate responsibility.

[ December 11, 2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Zacman1987 ]
post #34 of 54
I get, I get it, if your the down hill skier who does something that the skier about to over take you does not expect, we all read minds you know, any way your 10% in the wrong for being there, right let some bozo run over my six year old because he turned when not expected & we will see how far that goes.
you have got to be kidding
now like I said I ski fast very fast so not very many people overtake me & if they do its probably because I have slowed down due to a crowded run, or a narrow trail with other skiers on it, I say out loud on your right or left to people I am about to pass but I have seen the time were even that startled people & you have to take that possibilty into account, we all would love to ski were we want how we want without having to worry about other skiers, thats why I like to ski at nite, less crowded but the less skilled & people who want to ski slow paid for their lift tickets too.


bteddy

[ December 10, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: bteddy ]
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by nakona:
Whether you're on the highway or on the slopes, if you aren't alone then you have to take everyone else into account as you move along. You do this subconsciously but still, you are calculating everyone elses speed and vector, then plotting a safe track among them.

If someone suddenly does something COMPLETELY different, without any warning, then he has to bear some responsibility for bringing it upon himself.
Agree entirely with the first point.

Disagree with the second. You should be in a position to avoid any erratic sort of move, particularly on beginner or intermediate sloes, and also particularly on crowded slopes.

The highway analogy to skiing is not valid IMHO, particularly where it concerns beginners or intermediates, who understandably lack the spatial awareness of more advanced skiers:

- On a highway you are bound by a much more rigid set of rules (not that you would be able to tell sometimes!), you are guided into lanes to drive in, and you are most of the time in a car that is easy to drive and on a flat, predictable surface.

- On the slopes you are admittedly guided by a code that it is every skiers/boarders responsibility to be familiar with. However, you are in a much more creative environment than a highway, you can go wherever your whim takes you. Suddenly the downhill skier sees a little bank to their left so veers off and down it. This might be completely out of synch with the pattern that the uphill skier has observed. But surely they have a right to do this.
You are also on a platform that is often difficult to control, and on a surface that is highly variable and undulating. It is not realistic to expect a non-advanced skier to check over their shoulder every time they move off their predicted path.

Admittedly instances where people stop unexpectedly in the middle of a trail are sometimes very difficult to avoid collision, but the very nature of having lots of people of differing abilities on a ski area means collisions are inevitable from time to time.
post #36 of 54
Nakona:

Actually, the traffic analogy is flawed. Better check your drivers handbook for NYS.

Any driver who hits someone from the rear is judged to be at fault unless they were driven into the other vehicle BY another vehicle.

The only exception on almost 40 years of driving that I am aware of, involved an individual who abandoned a car on a highway in 0 visibility fog (it was not me ) , the fellow who left the car was cited and the local judge dropped the charge against my uncle. I think even that decision was flawed because ol' Uncle Tom should not have even been attempting to drive under those conditions.

If I come to a sudden stop because a rock or fallen limb (or fallen kid) emerges around a bend in the trail, and you hit me, am I at fault ..... not on a bet!

Believe it or not, in 37 years on skis, I have never hit someone from behind. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later, "there are two kind of pilots, those who have landed with the gear up and those who are gonna", and I have had had a few wake up calls (close ones) when trying to time a pass.

[ December 11, 2002, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: yuki ]
post #37 of 54
In the practical sense, this comes down to an issue of "would you rather be right and wrecked or safe?" and for me is more analagous to boating (of which I do a fair amount) than to highway driving.

Despite the apparently higher barriers to entry for boating than skiing, we get a lot of idiots who like to buy go-fast boats but have no idea how or where to drive them or what the rules are with regard to other boats. Like skiing on a trail, there are no defined lanes on a lake - and people travel in all different directions - not just downhill. With most of these people there is simply no point in arguing with them that they just violated your right of way (by the way, a boat being overtaken - like the downhill skier - retains the right of way). If you are in a sailboat, it is even worse - the powerboaters (the rough equivalent in some respects to boarders/skiers) have no understanding of why you just turned your boat so suddenly - it's called tacking, pal - it's what we do.

See, the good thing about cars is that you need a license and there are lots of signs. Ostensibly, there is some minimum level of understanding - so that even if people violate the rules, they at least realize they are doing it. On the water and on the slopes it simply adds insult to injury that these folks violate the code or law and then are ticked off at you for it.

To me this is an educational issue. People need to read and understand the Skier's Responsibility Code. This absolutely needs to be drilled into anyone who is on the slopes. Yes, from a practical standpoint I keep an eye on what is going on all around me - I'd rather be safe - even though it is not my responsibility from a code standpoint.

For those who seek to put some blame on the downhill skier, I think that you can explain an accident because of a downhill skier's actions - but that doesn't make it his or her responsibility.

As for the driving analogy, I was taking my boat out to a different lake for a holiday weekend a few years back. We were exiting an interstate, evening, rainy. I was exiting below the recommended speed for the ramp. Guy at the end of the exit ramp (Car #1) decides that he needs/wants to yield to the invisible cars on the access road, so he comes to a complete stop. Car #2 hits him, car #3 hits #2. Car #4 stops short, but skewed a little to the side. I am car #5, 5,000+ pounds of truck and 7,500+ pounds of boat. I jammed on the brakes, got 8 wheels screaming and came to a reasonably gentle rest about a foot into the rear pillar of a brand-spanking new minivan, I say gentle because I was only going about 5 mph when I hit the van - but with over 6 tons of weight I completely demolished the rear pillar and much of the back of his van. Then I had to worry about someone running into the back of my boat and having my stainless props come through their windshield - not fun. Anyway, the police officer and the firemen were amazed that I was able to get my rig stopped as I did (the truck was dented, but not seriously wrecked). Then I got a ticket for failure to stop. The officer apologized to me as he wrote the ticket, but the fact of the matter is that it was my job to stop, period. Even when there is a complete moron at the other end of the line - who did not get a ticket! So, his actions explain what happened, but the wreck was my responsibility.

raubin
post #38 of 54
There is a situation where there is no up hill skier and that is when two skiers who are at the same level on the slope happen to turn into each other. This scenerio is the only one in which I have clipped someone else. I appoligized profusely and my ski school director appoligized just as much. Accidents like this are rare but possible.

As to the rest of it. I would guess that I ski faster than most of the folk who post here but if I can't give other skiers at least ten yards of clearence then I shut it down untill I have a clearer slope. Trying to weave your way through a crowd of skiers at speed is not just unsafe it is stupid no matter how good you think you are. Even when skiing slowly I try to give at least a pole held at arms length of space between me and others. If the slope is so crowded that I can't make this much space to ski in then I would have to think long and hard about continuing to ski. I realize that this means that there are areas in the mid-west and east where I wouldn't want to ski because of the crowded conditions but I admit to being a spoiled western skier.

Yd

[ December 11, 2002, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Ydnar ]
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by yuki:
Nakona:

Actually, the traffic analogy is flawed. Better check your drivers handbook for NYS.

Any driver who hits someone from the rear is judged to be at fault unless they were driven into the other vehicle BY another vehicle.

And if someone changes lanes and pulls in front of you, then slams on his brakes?

Look, I've never hit anyone either, although I for sure haven't skied for 37 years.

Let me try this another way.

If you're skiing down a hill, doing steady S turns along one side and you get the urge to open up one of the S turns and ski completely across the face of the hill to the other side, you take a quick look over your shoulder first, right?

Why do you do that if the guy uphill has the responsibility to not hit you?
post #40 of 54
Nakona,

I do that because I assume that everyone above me is an irresponsible idiot. I would much rather be safe than right.

Yd
post #41 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by nakona:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yuki:
Nakona:

> > >And if someone changes lanes and pulls in front of you, then slams on his brakes?< < <

If we collide, it's still my fault according to the law, no matter how stupid, drunk, stoned, or clueless the other driver might be.

> > > If you're skiing down a hill, doing steady S turns along one side and you get the urge to open up one of the S turns and ski completely across the face of the hill to the other side, you take a quick look over your shoulder first, right? < < <

I look uphill because:

A. I just did something that changed the pattern.

B. There are a *lot* of idiot drivers, er... skiers, who are NOT in control to the point where they could stop if my erratic move takes me into their downhill path. But whether you like it or not, Nakona, the definition of skiing in control is that you can stop or avoid anything - anything - that happens below you.

> > > Why do you do that if the guy uphill has the responsibility to not hit you?< < <
</font>[/quote]I could give a fig about whether he's "responsible" if that guy hits me. I look uphill because I plain don't want him to hit me. But the key here is that I've been skiing for decades and I'm comfortable enough on skis to be able to look over my shoulder without worrying about falling down, most of the time, anyway.

The cold, hard fact is that there are a whole lot of skiers who simply haven't developed the skills and awareness to do what you would like them to do. 8-year-old kids out for their first time, for example. That's why the rule is that the uphill skier is responsible for not hitting the downhill skier. No exceptions, no extenuating circumstances.

Bob
post #42 of 54
Quote:
I look uphill because:

A. I just did something that changed the pattern.
Exactly.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by nakona:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I look uphill because:

A. I just did something that changed the pattern.
Exactly.</font>[/quote]I guess you're right.

I (along with the entire ski industry) must be wrong.

Would you be kind enough to let me know if you're ever going to be skiing out here in Utah or Wyoming?

I'll want to do a lot more looking over my shoulder.

Bob
post #44 of 54
This is all fine but the facts are that the hill is filled with attitudes; some care about others, some don’t and then there are those special people that go out of their way scare or even hurt others just because they can. Sometimes I wish the law wasn’t so protective of our special people.
Raymond
post #45 of 54
The car analogy doesn't work because you don't have "licensed" skiers. There is no test to pass that says you have some amount of competency to participate. You have people (young) that are just beginning to learn about the "rules of life" not to mention just learning how to ski. Sure there's the Responsibility Code but you don't have to read or understand it to purchase a lift ticket. I think skier beware may help you to ski the entire season.
post #46 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucky:
[QB]The car analogy doesn't work because you don't have "licensed" skiers.[QB]
So, that means that licensed automobile drivers in Tacoma are actually qualified to drive?!? Down here in Oregon, the test is so simple that even the comatose could pass the test. And, as they say, the proof is in the pudding, we have some really bad drivers. But then again, maybe they are just those pesky Texan immigrants. What do you think Sno'more?

Nakona:

I look uphill because life is short, death is long, and I have seen some suprisingly unskilled skiers skiing completely out of control at speeds far beyond their abilities.

Mark

[ December 11, 2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Maddog1959 ]
post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob.Peters:

I (along with the entire ski industry) must be wrong.
Hey, you know what Bob?

If you (and the entire ski industry) believes that an individual should do NOTHING pro-active to look after his own safety, then you ARE wrong.

Unless maybe on YOUR planet the hills are filled with nothing but top level PSIA certified experts wo are never out of control.

If that's the case, then I apologize, but that sure doesn't describe anyplace I ever skied.

By the way, if you ever come to NY, be sure and step off the curb to cross the street as soon as the light turns green in your direction because Lord knows, every driver in NYC makes sure that he yields the right of way.
post #48 of 54
Nakona, we're obviously not on the same wavelength here.

Are we talking about the same things?

Skiing "in control" to me means that I can stop or change my line quickly enough to avoid hitting someone or something. If I'm "in control", it plain doesn't matter what that downhill skier does - I can avoid the collision. If I can't avoid hitting him, no matter what kind of dumb maneuver he pulls, I'm out of control.

Now, *should* the downhill skier take steps to ski safely and look out for his own well-being? Sure. But that's irrelevant to my own responsibility to be in control when I'm near other skiers.

I have a feeling that you're a much better, faster skier than I am and that you probably ski at areas that are much more crowded. It must be frustrating to have to weave through masses of people when what you really want to do is cruise your line at your chosen speed.

All I would say is that you can wish that skiers downhill of you would act smarter but that won't make it happen.

Bob
post #49 of 54
Double post, doooooooooohhhhhhhhh. :

[ December 11, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Maddog1959 ]
post #50 of 54
Nakona, here are some sites to skiing law to help you out:

http://www.skilaw.com/recentart.htm

http://www.skilaw.com/skioverview.htm

I suggest reading the law of your State, since it appears you do not have an understanding of the current state of the law. You may also want to look up the actual statute in your State and read the full law. Right now your "understanding" of the law is likely to earn you a role as defendant in a tort lawsuit. So, you may also wish to ensure your homeowners/renters insurance covers your skiing and you may wish to purchase a $1,000,000 Umbrella policy to make sure the insurer puts some thought into the defense of your case.

Mark
post #51 of 54
This is me, shrugging my shoulders and leaving the thread.
post #52 of 54
I'm tired of snowboarders who decide to sit down in the middle of the run. Last week when I went skiing it was hard to get past there were so many of them sitting by a jump, even after repeated attemps to get them to move by the ski patrol they just wouldn't. I am tired of it!
post #53 of 54
When a snowboarder stops to wait for their child or something, they will generally sit down. Most people think nothing of it cuz it doesn't take up any more space than a skier who stops and stands. Ski Patrol is aware of this.

Oh, wait. The sitting you describe DID create a problem. I say spray 'em!

When I stop I stand. If me or my friends sit, we know we're fair game. Spray us!
post #54 of 54
When I was skiing at Brighton early this season, I got off the lift and noticed three boarders sitting and leaning against the sign in the unloading area that said "DO NOT STOP HERE - KEEP MOVING". Classic.
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