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Well Yuki, it looks like you and Bernie Sanders got your wish. - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Sorry, it's my lot in life I suppose? Advocate for the devil .. :

No, I don't have all of the facts, however if my memory serves from other threads and a conversation I had with a gal in Switzerland, instructors jobs in Europe seem to be protected much more than here.

She was waiting tables and I struck up a conversation. She was an instructor from Colorado however, she was working as a waitress because that was all they (the Swiss), would allow her to do. She was only allowed to help (ski instructing), on rare occasions where they had a large tour group and there was a specific request (by the group), to have an America accompany them. I never had a problem communicating in Switzwerland and I speak no other languages but I assume that most Swiss speak pretty good English.

Epic threads have mentioned that you can't teach in France .... period.

Is anyone aware of the actual protocols for an American teaching abroad?

The Italians even booted the US camera operators from the Olympic events.

Euros on Epic threads have described instructing as a true middle class profession where one can indeed make a living after becoming certified and that the standards are high, but worth working towards.

It would be nice if (as alleged by rumor), it was a two way street but it sure doesn't sound that way.
post #32 of 56
Thread Starter 
I thik people make out European ski instructing to be more than it is. Last year, we spent a week in Austria and my 4 year old used the ski school. I wasn't too impressed. The instructors didn't look a whole lot different from what we have. College kids / gap year kids or whatever. Obviously, there are higher level instructors there, and I think they do make a living that is not available here. Their labor laws seem pretty unfair and xenophobic to me, requiring Brits to do the speed test seems like BS to me considering they are all in the EU That still doesn't mean we have to respond in kind.

Oh well, I'm glad to hear Crystal got her visa. It sounds like our instructors will be able to try again on Jan. 1 so they won't lose the whole season. It'll probably be nice for the Aussies to experience a little bit of summer for once.
post #33 of 56
Woo-hoo for Crystel. The Aussie Penguin will rule again. I heard through the igloos that it wasn't so much that she wanted to come back to instruct, but to beat someones sorry butt in some race series...I don't know if its true..its just what I heard.
post #34 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Woo-hoo for Crystel. The Aussie Penguin will rule again. .
X2
post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Woo-hoo for Crystel. The Aussie Penguin will rule again. I heard through the igloos that it wasn't so much that she wanted to come back to instruct, but to beat someones sorry butt in some race series...I don't know if its true..its just what I heard.

I will rule again!

T
post #36 of 56
At the risk of being branded as a flag waving Chauvinist (original definition), "anti furrner", please note that my objection is not with the free lance visiting instructors.

At the next area that I worked, we had a smattering of Brits that blended in and were treated the same as the rest of the crew. Nice folks and a joy to work with!

My objection is simply that when they bring a dozen or so sub standard cut rate wedge turners and feed them, house them and then use them while excluding the "rank and file", who have paid dearly for the privilige of teaching, that is wrong. It may be good "business sense" since they are "bought and paid for", but it is not ethical.

Towards the end of the season, while preparing for my Level I, I had to do some "on the record" shadows (for free), just to make the hourly requirement that was the PSIA minimum at the time. I think that was 40 hours. I had enjoyed doing (off the books), shadows with senior instructors just to learn, but I think the fact that towards the end of the season, I was just squeeking by to make the 40 hour mark illustrates how little some of us were used.

Good luck and best wishes to the "Aussie Penguin" in her quest for speed! I spent some "quality time" with some of your kin with the RAAF in Townsville .... good steak, fish & chips .... but the warm brew?
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Hey, I try. You wouldn't believe how often the Sherriff is over there. :
LOL, I thought you were generalizing...not referring to a specific pain in the neck neighbor.
Quote:
That still doesn't mean we have to respond in kind.
Exactly. Its not like xenophobic protectionism is going to miraculously go away if we just return the favor.

Like you said...9 skilled people in a staff of 250. People that make life more interesting for everyone.

The thing I have a problem with is how the visas lock the person into a potentially abusive situation. I've seen (unskilled) foreign young people treated unbelievably poorly by local businessmen in tourist traps. 10 people in an apartment smaller than mine, etc. And yes, I'm talking about seasonal employees that legally entered the country.
post #38 of 56
Garrett, this has been a problem here in New Jersey at a place owned by the Six Flags group at Great Adventure. They are located in the Pine Barrens coastal region and despite being within 60 miles of New York City, it's quite remote and public transportation does not exist.

They have come under fire for recruiting kids from all over Europe for summer jobs. The kids come over expecting that they will be able to see a bit of America and have a fun summer work experience. The reality, as reported, is that they house these kids in trailers on the site but since they are often too young, nor with the pay, can they afford to rent a car, all they will see of America is that patch of remote pine woods till their contract runs out and they board the plane for home.

They are within an hour of NYC and fifteen minutes from some great beaches and fun, but it is more akin to a prison sentence .... from the interviews that I have read.

Sad!
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuki View Post
Sad!
Interesting. The biggest employer of these kids in the area I'm talking about is Great Escape, which is owned by Six Flags as well...
post #40 of 56
Thread Starter 
post #41 of 56
Thanks for that link.
post #42 of 56
Thread Starter 
The girl in the picture, Pia I think is a great example of how H2B should work. She started as a liftie 5 or 6 years ago and moved into Ski School her second year. She now works at Valle Nevado in our summers and is pursuing certification down there and coming back here every winter. She's a gem. I hope she makes it back this year.
post #43 of 56
Thread Starter 
post #44 of 56
Good article, puts the issue in perspective as it relates to Vt.

Long term I think Bernie is on the right track, however there needs to always be flexibility. Strict over sight to protect against abuses should be a part of the program.
post #45 of 56
epic,

Our SA's are college students on their summer break (unskilled). They work lifts, food service and we get 4 for snowsports school. They work full time (including night instruction). Some have gotten their LI so they can work at resorts in SA. I think they are under a different visa from the returning skilled staff.

RW
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
epic,

Our SA's are college students on their summer break (unskilled). They work lifts, food service and we get 4 for snowsports school. They work full time (including night instruction). Some have gotten their LI so they can work at resorts in SA. I think they are under a different visa from the returning skilled staff.

RW
It is very likely that even lifties are using the abused visas. IMO the key is not a rapid change in policy, which is bound to cause dislocations, but something more gradual, like a 10% per year decrease in the number of these visas. We need a plan to get from here to where we need to be on the whole immigration business. We would have massive problems if we could kick out all of the illegals tomorrow. Where a very rapid short term decrease in the number of illegals has occurred, in some farming communities, the farmers were not able to find legal workers in time to harvest a crop. This seems very wasteful. I have no problem with saying "what part of illegal don't you understand," but the "migration path" from where we are to where we would like to be is difficult to discern.
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post
It is very likely that even lifties are using the abused visas. IMO the key is not a rapid change in policy, which is bound to cause dislocations, but something more gradual, like a 10% per year decrease in the number of these visas. We need a plan to get from here to where we need to be on the whole immigration business. We would have massive problems if we could kick out all of the illegals tomorrow. Where a very rapid short term decrease in the number of illegals has occurred, in some farming communities, the farmers were not able to find legal workers in time to harvest a crop. This seems very wasteful. I have no problem with saying "what part of illegal don't you understand," but the "migration path" from where we are to where we would like to be is difficult to discern.
Well said. The whold thing needs oversight. But why should we hire out side for lifties (as an example)? How is a ski bum going to make a living?
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Well said. The whold thing needs oversight. But why should we hire out side for lifties (as an example)? How is a ski bum going to make a living?
I don't think we do need to hire aliens to do that kind of work (lifts), as there are plenty of US citizens ready to perform the work, at the right wage. Paying a pitiful wage is not supposed to be a justification to hire aliens. That said, we don't want to destroy businesses by radically altering their cost structure in the short run. Let's turn the ship of state gently. OTOH, for occupations like ski instructor, the US should allow foreign workers to do some of the work here, as long as their home countries provide similar opportunities for US citizens. This makes a lot of sense with respect to AustralZealand. It might not make so much sense with respect to countries with no ski industry, like Honduras, or with concurrent ski seasons, like France (as if the French would tolerate a US citizen instructing for a moment).
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Interesting. The biggest employer of these kids in the area I'm talking about is Great Escape, which is owned by Six Flags as well...
I remember when the Great Escape was Storytown USA....don't forget about Gaslight Village in Lake George village.
post #50 of 56
Thread Starter 
Don't compare illegals to legals either. It's so easy to kick out the legal people, adn apparently a whole lot harder to deal with the illegal problem. It's a cheap way to look tough on immigration, but we're talking about 66,000 legal workers vs. millions of illegals.
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Don't compare illegals to legals either. It's so easy to kick out the legal people, adn apparently a whole lot harder to deal with the illegal problem. It's a cheap way to look tough on immigration, but we're talking about 66,000 legal workers vs. millions of illegals.
I think the problem is that many immigrants with valid visas got those visas because someone here, planning to hire lower cost foreign workers, broke the law which requires employers to look for potential employees here first. Those employers may not be subject to prosecution, because of the difficulty of proving the case, but nonetheless the visas are abused. In the end, protections designed for US citizen workers are ignored, and it really doesn't matter to me whether the employee or employer broke the law. It may be easy to deport a worker with a valid visa if we find a problem with it, but it is almost impossible to find problems that really exist. The simple solution is to limnit the number of visas, however, it is extremely unlikely that merely limiting the number of H visas will reduce the proportion which are abused, only the gross number of abused visas.

The argument that the raw numbers of illegal immigrants means that we should not enforce restrictions on legla programs seems wrong to me. It is like arguing that there are more drunk drivers so we should ignore car thieves. We certainly need to prioritize our resources use, but I don't see that encouraging the misuse of H visas is good policy either.
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post
The argument that the raw numbers of illegal immigrants means that we should not enforce restrictions on legla programs seems wrong to me. It is like arguing that there are more drunk drivers so we should ignore car thieves. We certainly need to prioritize our resources use, but I don't see that encouraging the misuse of H visas is good policy either.
That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm just saying it's really easy for politicians to deal with this small problem and ignore the big one. Of course H2Bs should be complying with the law, but mayne they could try enforcing the existing law instead of cutting the program.
post #53 of 56
My resort brings in college kids from Brazil on their summer break to work lifts. One could make a case either way whether or not the justification for their visas is dubious. It's my perception that our liftie pay is comparable to comparable work in the region. It's been my observation that getting reliable help at that pay scale has been difficult and that having the imports on board (and living on site) has been a big improvement.

Could the resort get the same quality staffing at a higher wage rate? Yes. Should the resort have to pay higher than market rate to attract quality staff? Maybe. The cost of commuting can factor heavily on these positions. Why would anyone want to drive 20 miles for a low wage part time position when you could get the same pay at a McDonalds 5 miles away? What's the going rate for mileage these days, 44 cents? The liftie job would cost almost $15 more. At $6/hour, that's a 2 hour or 25% penalty compared to the McDonalds job. Because the imports are housed on site, this cost is eliminated. Would locals be willing to be housed on site? My perception is that there is little interest in this. Should the resort have to pay higher wages to offset the uncertainty of unemployment with respect to opening and closing dates and potential closure dates in between? That's tough too. So although it's easy to make a case that paying higher wages would eliminate the need for the resort to import help. It's a little harder to make the case that the resort is paying less than market rate for the help that they are importing or not offering the same compensation (e.g. on site housing) to locals. It is easy to see how reasonable people could disagree over this.
post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
My resort brings in college kids from Brazil on their summer break to work lifts.
So does my resort although not for lifts. With the hype about the reduced H2-B visa caps the college kids many ski resorts hire fall under the J1 program which is not effected by the H2-B caps.
post #55 of 56
for purposes of clarification, I believe the J1 program (or so I have been told by workers on those visas) is intended for students, with a provision that they already have to be enrolled/accepted by university for the next term before the visa is issued.
post #56 of 56
The kids start heading back to Brazil mid-late March which works out great as the resort is starting to slow down businesswise at that time.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Well Yuki, it looks like you and Bernie Sanders got your wish.