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Let's analyze another Herman Maier shot - Page 2

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
He is in a parallel dimension to the observer.
Does this mean that The Herminator is in fact a merciless cyborg assassin, who has been sent back from the year 2029 to destroy non-Austrian ski-racers?
post #32 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Alright, BigE, nuttin better to do at the moment so I guess I'll take a stab.

To post 1...

Looks like a steered entry into the new turn to me. After frame 2 the skis are released and pivoted into the new turn (not grossly), by frame 4 the steering angle is somewhat across the direction of travel. I don't know how you determined the inside ski is carrying "quite a bit of weight", I don't have a clue what the distribution might be.
Well, to my eye, it looks like the inside ski is being decambered. "Quite a bit of weight" could be the wrong wording. I just wanted to highlight that whatever weight is on the ski at that point, it is nearly gone by the next frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
I don't think either ski is fully engaged in frame 4, but I do believe he is working them in the snow to start his redirection while continuing to drift to his left before completely engaging the skis at about frame 5 - as you say with the outside ski loaded and de-cambered at that point.
That works for me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib
I'd agree the movement across the hill stopped between 5/6 and in 6 he's off in the new direction.

I would say the acceleration downhill is already showing clearly back up at 3/4 and continues as you say thru 4/5 & 5/6.
A bit by 3/4 but it's very dramatic at 5/6.
[/quote]

I would agree some weight is on the inside ski, how much ...who knows. I don't know about the outside ski giving away - maybe so, how can ya tell in a still? Can't say if this turn will end like the last or not - how would we know at this point (frame 6)?
[/quote]

True. We don't even know where the next gate is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib

To post 10...

Shovel pressure in 4? Well, OK. Looks like a ton in 5 too though. All the way to tail pressure in 6? ...I don't see that just yet. What are the tell tales? He still looks fairly deep in this turn at 6, if he has already moved to the tail of the ski, how is he keeping the shovel of ski engaged?

Chris
To my eye, it looks like the shovel of the outside ski is not engaged very much, if at all, and the inside tip is in the air.
post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
Does this mean that The Herminator is in fact a merciless cyborg assassin, who has been sent back from the year 2029 to destroy non-Austrian ski-racers?
No... Hermann isn't Austrian at all. He is the offspring of "foreign" family (illegal immigrants?) who moved to Roswell New Mexico around 1947. Unfortunately, Hermann was the only member of the family to survive this "relocation" to the "new world," so he quickly moved to Austria to conceal his true identity (plus it is just easier for someone who is "foreign" to blend in, in Europe). With him he took his knowledge, undoubtedly passed down to him from his family, of building craft that could hold an electrogravitic system powerful enough to create an anti-gravitational field, able to levitate the object/craft. Later in his life he passed this technology along to an Austrian ski maker, who was able to integrate this technology into an Alpine race ski, which in turn dominated competition for years to come (haven't you ever wondered what they put inside those Beta lobes?) - of course with Hermann himself at the head of the pack. A minor setback came later in his career when Hermann was forced to regenerate one of his limbs (much more difficult to do in Austria than it would have been if he were still at home - where the medical technology is much more advanced than in Europe) in order to continue to dominate the rest of the planet.

I always knew he wasn't human... now I know how he is able to ski like he does... He has learned the secret of manipulating gravity, creating anti-gravitational fields, and the ability to levitate objects in a way that is completely counter to modern physics.

Later

GREG
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
Here come the worms.
Herman is in dynamic counterbary between frames 3 and 4. The bending of his skis is deflecting his inertial mass creating a localized gravitic affect. He is in a parallel dimention to the observer. (During gravitic affect a phenomen called "the Hutchinson Effect" occures where the experimenters intentions skew the results of the experiment.) Hermans intent is clearly to go fast and hold his line. Skillful manupulation of gravitics coupled with the Hutchinson effect fufills his wish and he is fast and on his desired line.
Release the hounds.
I'm not sure if you were serious with this or were just trying to find an elaborate way to troll... but if you were to define some of the unusual terms you used in your post you might make more headway with this crowd. I am certain that you wouldn't teach a clinic or conduct a lesson using those kinds of terms. I am also sure you don't try to use a skillful manipulation of terms/words to try to add confusion or prompt a dissenting opinion. Interesting that you would use the "Hutchinson Effect" though.

Later

GREG
post #35 of 54

Look at the entire turn...

To all those who have participated in this thread so far:

It seems as though this has digressed into debating the difference between two or three frames, and the rest of what is going on is being ignored. A few have pointed to specific places where supposed rotary has taken place, and others are denying it - as usual.

So... I ask you this: Why not look at the actual root movements that went into creating this turn and which were intentional and which were a result of course tactics. I think that this is where Bud was headed with his post. If you were to make a turn in this course right after Hermann skied it - how would you do it? Or... if you wanted to make a turn while skiing, similar to what Hermann executed here, what movements would you be using to do it? If you can execute a similar kind of turn, this should be easy to come up with. If you can't, then deciphering the root movements that went into making this turn will be a learning experience.

Remember, Hermann didn't ski this turn in 6 frames individually, so analyzing each frame alone is doing the actual process of making the turn quite a disservice.

Later

GREG
post #36 of 54
So, in doing some online research to try to learn what "gravitics" might be, I came upon a site:

http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/

While the site didn't really teach me very much cuz I'm too stupid (physics was never my best subject), I *did* come across this fascinating image if a "Microwave Powered Implosion Propulsion System":



Now, I have no idea what this thing is, what it purportedly does, or whether it works or not, but I have got a serious case of gadget envy. I *want* one of these things.

Sorry for the hijack...

Back to Hermann.
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
I'm not sure if you were serious with this or were just trying to find an elaborate way to troll... but if you were to define some of the unusual terms you used in your post you might make more headway with this crowd. I am certain that you wouldn't teach a clinic or conduct a lesson using those kinds of terms. I am also sure you don't try to use a skillful manipulation of terms/words to try to add confusion or prompt a dissenting opinion. Interesting that you would use the "Hutchinson Effect" though.

Later

GREG
I think you've called it just what it is, A Troll

I have a feeling there's a few people who sit in the background and shake their heads about the fun a few skinicks have talking about movements and disecting video and pictures.

It's not all that bad and it passes time.
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
but if you were to define some of the unusual terms you used in your post you might make more headway with this crowd.
You are encouraging someone who has replaced physics with mystical beliefs. I'm not sure how expounding on junk science and mysticism is going to help, but I'm pretty sure it can do additional harm. The post in question goes well beyond unfamiliar jargon into the land of the irrational.

These broken thought patterns can't be corrected via any rational appeal. Recoiling at their absurdity isn't productive and it isn't nice to mock the ill. The ignore feature would be the perfect solution if the train wreck wasn't so appealing.
Quote:
Remember, Hermann didn't ski this turn in 6 frames individually, so analyzing each frame alone is doing the actual process of making the turn quite a disservice.
I agree. I'm also think some of the questions posed here can't be answered adequately without additional context. I know they were meant with the best of intentions, but they seem a bit trivial without more gates to look at. I'm not saying that I find the sequence to be without value; in fact I think there is a whole lot we can learn from it with questions we can answer well.

/It is a right turn, for instance.
//I've learned a tremendous amount about skiing from Ron LeMaster's images over the years.
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
Here come the worms.
Herman is in dynamic counterbary between frames 3 and 4. The bending of his skis is deflecting his inertial mass creating a localized gravitic affect. He is in a parallel dimention to the observer. (During gravitic affect a phenomen called "the Hutchinson Effect" occures where the experimenters intentions skew the results of the experiment.) Hermans intent is clearly to go fast and hold his line. Skillful manupulation of gravitics coupled with the Hutchinson effect fufills his wish and he is fast and on his desired line.
Release the hounds.
I can see what you mistake as the Hutchinson Effect. He is one solid citizen and he certainly is flying. Could it be a secret power switch on his Fischers ?(Guessing on his brand )
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
I can see what you mistake as the Hutchinson Effect. He is one solid citizen and he certainly is flying. Could it be a secret power switch on his Fischers ?(Guessing on his brand )
Atomic
post #41 of 54

Dogon chat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell View Post
Does this mean that The Herminator is in fact a merciless cyborg assassin, who has been sent back from the year 2029 to destroy non-Austrian ski-racers?
Not at all. He was caught in a time vortex created by Nazi scientist in 1942 in the secret tunnels beneath Arlberg Pass. They were trying to reverse engineer captured alien technology to create a nazi flying disk. Unfortunatly they didn't account for the "hutchinson effect" and their evil intentions caused the results of their experiments to skew and the massive failure left residual temporal fluxuations through out the region. Parallel dimentions are constantly being created and they always merge with normal space-time. They are however subject to the intentions of those in the area and dishonorable intents never suceed while honorable, well concieved intents always prevail. That is why the military has never suceeded with their attenpt to reverse engineer the captured nazi ufo's. The parallel dimensions and Einsteinian paradox's are governed by universal laws that dictate that only good intentions will traverse space/time. This is the new paradigm predicted by the Mayan calander. You can go ahead and call me crazy or whatever but in the overall scheme of living you have to decide if the world you percieve is going to be a sustainable enviornment where honorable intentions propagate and dishonor is ignored. So if you want to say that making a decent parallell turn is contributing to the well being of the universe then I say that's OK.
post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
Not at all. He was caught in a time vortex created by Nazi scientist in 1942 in the secret tunnels beneath Arlberg Pass. They were trying to reverse engineer captured alien technology to create a nazi flying disk. Unfortunatly they didn't account for the "hutchinson effect" and their evil intentions caused the results of their experiments to skew and the massive failure left residual temporal fluxuations through out the region. Parallel dimentions are constantly being created and they always merge with normal space-time. They are however subject to the intentions of those in the area and dishonorable intents never suceed while honorable, well concieved intents always prevail. That is why the military has never suceeded with their attenpt to reverse engineer the captured nazi ufo's. The parallel dimensions and Einsteinian paradox's are governed by universal laws that dictate that only good intentions will traverse space/time. This is the new paradigm predicted by the Mayan calander. You can go ahead and call me crazy or whatever but in the overall scheme of living you have to decide if the world you percieve is going to be a sustainable enviornment where honorable intentions propagate and dishonor is ignored. So if you want to say that making a decent parallell turn is contributing to the well being of the universe then I say that's OK.
Martin and Dogon...
I was having a cruddy day. Thanks for the laugh.

Dennis
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
...
So if you want to say that making a decent parallell turn is contributing to the well being of the universe then I say that's OK.
WHOA!

Instant flashback to "The Moebius Flip".

:
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogonjon View Post
So if you want to say that making a decent parallell turn is contributing to the well being of the universe then I say that's OK.
O.K., If anyone wants to disagree with this statement they are just plain WRONG (and ought to be banned or at least put on a time out).
post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
O.K., If anyone wants to disagree with this statement they are just plain WRONG (and ought to be banned or at least put on a time out).
Given this new physics, a time out could be much more serious than we thought.
How do we know all the parallel dimensions rejoin our timeline? We wouldn't see the ones that got lost, would we?
post #46 of 54
>>>/It is a right turn, for instance. <<<

As the old guy on this site I might as well contribute to this insanity. Attached is a picture of the cover of the November 1957 Sports Illustrated showing Willy Schaeffler who was THE skiing guru of the time how to incorporate angulation and counter into making a turn the correct way, and yes, we, I among them skied that way. It was necessary because the counter rotation was the turning force (as opposed to rotation used commonly) and angulation was the balancing factor.

What fun to see how much skiing has changed in fifty years, too bad I wont be around to see how it will be fifty years from now

....Ott



post #47 of 54
Ott, Wedeln On!
post #48 of 54
Not to hijack the thread but wouldn't it be nice to see Sports Illustrated take an interest in Skiing these days?
post #49 of 54
Otto. What is going on in that picture ? Is he winding the spring for a turn the other way ? Is is a artists misconception ? I would assume he made the drawing from a photograph and it is an accurate portrayal of his movement frozen in time .
Could he be keeping his upper body in the fall line and turning around it when he wishes to ?
post #50 of 54
I love that photo Ott.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars
Not to hijack the thread but wouldn't it be nice to see Sports Illustrated take an interest in Skiing these days?
http://books.google.com/books?id=FOh...cd=1#PPA265,M1

Read this book recently. I found the link between SI and skiing fascinating. Growing up in the 1990's I never could have imagined ski technique as a cover story in SI!
post #51 of 54
Garry, actually he is in the middle of a right turn. To turn these long stiff skis with comparatively low and soft leather boots and held against the skis with six-foot long thongs there were two possibilities: The old school racing turns of rotation or the brand new Austrian school of counter rotation demonstrated by Willy Schaeffler.

Turn initiation for rotation and turn sequence went like this: from a low body position a quick up-unweighting to lighten the skis with simultaneously a hard body rotation move in the direction of the turn and as the weight comes down on the skis the rotation is blocked (stopped) and the momentum of the blocked body is twisting the skis into the turn which then is guided by forward pressure to bend the shovels of the skis, the tails just went along for the ride.

Professor Kruckenhauser, the Austrian ski teaching scientist who himself never could ski parallel, stem christie was as far as he got, developed skiing upper/lower body separation using counter rotation and the comma (angulation) position as the turning force where the sequence as above had instead of a blocked rotation move which was fairly slow. Since the skis were light, sharply twisting the upper body counter to the turn direction had the reaction of turning the skis into the turn and the angulation instead of banking did away with the pendulum swing of the whole body from one turn to the next, the pendulum swing was just from the hip down, much quicker.

I do think the illustration is somewhat exaggerated, when I skied that technique I found a turn could be made with a lot less counter.

I'll try to attach a couple of shots of me, one posy one of counter rotation and a few years later what I could do when skis got softer and had less lateral twist.

....Ott



post #52 of 54
Garrett, I love that grayed out image of Anderl Molterer on page 71, I covered him in many races, I was a press photographer and was often assigned to cover races because I could ski.

....Ott
post #53 of 54
Phttp://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm


Photo 4 here might be the entire HM Montage discussed so much
post #54 of 54
http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm

Photo 4 here might be the entire HM montage
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