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Are ski instructors Lame? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by schanfm View Post
... but there are still many, many, many that can teach me a hell of a lot about the sport and I'm willing to learn it. Perhaps that is something that we as a group (instructors, trainers, coaches) can try to instill in others, a desire to keep learning and an understanding that there is always someone better and that we haven't "arrived" yet.
Oct 2, 2007

. Right on. I seem to recall a posting to a thread initiated by EPIC when he made Level III. One of his friends congratulated and encouraged him to even be better by saying: "Now you can really learn how to ski", or something to that effect. Words of wisdom.

By the way, I've helped close down Timberline WVa for the past 4 years ie I was there on closing day. On two of those closing days (early April) , it was snowing and we got 18-24 inches.

Think snow,

CP

PS: I am and have never been a Ski Pro.
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post

One of his friends congratulated and encouraged him to even be better by saying: "Now you can really learn how to ski", or something to that effect.
Oct 2, 2007

The exact quote by Kneale Brownson is: "now the real learning begins".

Think snow,

CP
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
Jasp, they may be from 'around the world' but I'd guess 70% of the worlds population aren't represented. I was poking fun at the statement, I know that you were talking about 'diverse ideas and personalities' not socio-economic diversity.
I would venture that the "70%" you refer to is closer to 99%. Much of the world's population lives far from skiing.

As far as attitudes go, I think most of our instructors don't fit the stereotype you describe. Many are high school and college students, some are former race team members, many are backcountry enthusiasts. They're there for the pass, for the chance to improve, because they have friends in the program, and because it si an excuse to be on the hill.

As an instructor myself, I find the whole technique discussions on here terribly dry and almost universally un-helpful. And looking at the other 149 instructors from Baker, none of them are on this site engaging in those brushed carving arguments.

and I have found that almost none of the instructors here are know-it-all asshats...but then again, there is a much more organic feel here than anywhere else I have ever skied.
post #34 of 57
I am....
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
I am....
You are?
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
You are?
Trust me....
post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Trust me....
Oct 2, 2007

Hi Lame Lonnie::

You're probably the Ski Pro most of us could learn a few things while having a good time at Alta. Trust me ...

Think snow,

CP
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Trust me....
well he is because he skis on skinny short skis and use dual control shifters, but then again he moved from NC to Utah with his great wife and skis 3 days a week. Much less lame then the people that complain about being where they are but refuse to move.

Hey look there's a squirrel!!!!>
post #39 of 57
>>>>I'm surprised at the number of ski instructors I see that can't ski worth beans. It just amazes me.<<<

Max, I've seen you and others state this many times here and on the 'other' forum and have always wondered where you draw the line between an instructor who can't ski worth beans and one who can.

How do you make that judgment? I also know instructors who don't ski very well in an obvious way and I know instructors who ski brilliantly, in between there is a large gap of varying instructor skills.

At what point in your judgment is the line of not OK and OK? I am asking because I have a hard time making these judgments and maybe you can help me, is it like a MA by observation from the chair or what?

I don't want a confrontation, I just want to know at what point one can make the differentiation.

.....Ott
post #40 of 57

(I got here researching "Experiential Learning" !!)

 

As for the question posed "Are ski instructors Lame?"

I think it's primarily the vocabulary used that's inadequate.  Not the example instructors.


Backing up others ("Jasp" and "Justanotherskipro") point of view:-


The misuse of "Lame" (and words like "Dumb") when pejoratively referring to people as inadequate should be deprecated. 

These words have proper meanings in English Language relating to disability.

It's possibly OK to say e.g. "that was a lame excuse", but then everyone knows in that context it probably isn't a personal insult against the physically injured or disabled. 

Still.  It isn't clever in any way to use these words in a slang idiom.  Certainly no professional ski teacher should use these words at work.

I see a lot of "sour grapes" (i.e. jealousy) resulting in criticism of ski instructors and teachers.  From the lower-level teachers who can't ski to a top level, the common disparaging boast is "Look at that teacher:  He was a racer and therefore isn't such a good teacher".  This serves to self-justify the speaker's doubtful claim to be a better teacher than the ex-racer. 

 

For the general public who don't take lessons, they know well enough that they need lessons, but they fight that thought by branding the first teacher they see as being inadequate in a list of ways.  By that twisted circular logic, they self-justify the decision not to go for a lesson.

post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post
 

(I got here researching "Experiential Learning" !!)

 

As for the question posed "Are ski instructors Lame?"

I think it's primarily the vocabulary used that's inadequate.  Not the example instructors.


Backing up others ("Jasp" and "Justanotherskipro") point of view:-


The misuse of "Lame" (and words like "Dumb") when pejoratively referring to people as inadequate should be deprecated. 

These words have proper meanings in English Language relating to disability.

It's possibly OK to say e.g. "that was a lame excuse", but then everyone knows in that context it probably isn't a personal insult against the physically injured or disabled. 

Still.  It isn't clever in any way to use these words in a slang idiom.  Certainly no professional ski teacher should use these words at work.

I see a lot of "sour grapes" (i.e. jealousy) resulting in criticism of ski instructors and teachers.  From the lower-level teachers who can't ski to a top level, the common disparaging boast is "Look at that teacher:  He was a racer and therefore isn't such a good teacher".  This serves to self-justify the speaker's doubtful claim to be a better teacher than the ex-racer. 

 

For the general public who don't take lessons, they know well enough that they need lessons, but they fight that thought by branding the first teacher they see as being inadequate in a list of ways.  By that twisted circular logic, they self-justify the decision not to go for a lesson.


So you post to comment negatively about a 9 year old thread.  Nothing better to do?

post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post


So you post to comment negatively about a 9 year old thread.  Nothing better to do?
Nothing better to do. Unless you have done any work on "Experiential Learning"? Have you?
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post


So you post to comment negatively about a 9 year old thread.  Nothing better to do?
Nothing better to do. Unless you have done any work on "Experiential Learning"? Have you?


I had a 31 year career in education.  Experiential Learning is one of those things that we pushed around a lot.  What does my experience have to do with your comments?  I'm not following.

post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post


I had a 31 year career in education.  Experiential Learning is one of those things that we pushed around a lot.  What does my experience have to do with your comments?  I'm not following.
That's very interesting.
I found this thread, as I mentioned earlier, searching for "experiential learning".
Do you have any favourite references for its application to ski teaching by any chance?
post #45 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post


I had a 31 year career in education.  Experiential Learning is one of those things that we pushed around a lot.  What does my experience have to do with your comments?  I'm not following.
That's very interesting.
I found this thread, as I mentioned earlier, searching for "experiential learning".
Do you have any favourite references for its application to ski teaching by any chance?


Nope.

post #46 of 57
Self discovery. Get it?
post #47 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip Ripply View Post

Self discovery. Get it?


Were you talking to me?  Experiential Learning is not "self discovery" in the sense that it is usually used.  I was asked about insights into ski teaching and EL.  I am not, nor have I ever been as ski teacher, so I don't have insights since I have never specifically considered it and I'm not interested in doing so.  I was just trying to figure out why someone would dig up a years-old thread to critique it for the world.  I still don't understand, but I'll live.

post #48 of 57
Not talking to you...it was an euphemism.
post #49 of 57
Google Kolb's theory itself. It is perhaps a better place to investigate the idea of presentation and class management. In skiing we use active experimentation far more often than in depth theories about why a movement works in the first place. That sometimes leads to talking about a skier's decision making and their application of a particular tactical solution rather than just offering a technique (movement) based correction. In that way experience plays a vital role in a student's success. Right, or wrong the ski teacher might call that process experiential learning but it may not follow Kolb's theorectical model. I am not sure exactly what you are looking for Davey but if you are investigating that theory Epic is not the best place to start.
post #50 of 57
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Edited by justanotherskipro - 2/21/16 at 10:41am
post #51 of 57

The CSIA has adopted Kolb's experiential learning model. I think this rollout will be a good test of the CSIA's ability to standardize their teaching first among course conductors, then among the instructor base. If done well, we could see a big improvement in teaching in Canada. Given the number of instructors in Canada, it may take time to reach most of the audience. It may never reach some of the audience. 

 

As far as the "lame ski instructors" question, I subscribe to the idea that it's not about instructors; it's about people. At various times in my skiing life I have been almost every one of those lame types. Different root causes for each one, but mostly they stem back to a lack of self-awareness or lack of external awareness.

 

As I work on being a better person, I'd like to think I'm moving away from these habits. Every once in a while, I'll realize I'm going first a bit too often, or making excuses, or being closed to a different interpretation of skiing (prejudging it as "wrong"). When I catch myself doing so, I give my head a shake and act mindfully. One of my friends made a joke about a certain guy who always hogs first place behind course conductors: 

 

Q: When isn't Bob first? 

A: When he's second.

 

It's up to us to consciously make the decision not to be that guy

post #52 of 57

In the future we won't even need ski instructors! Check out this Kickstarter that is developing a wearable technology that can teach better than any run of the mill instructor. 

post #53 of 57
To echo Met's post, there's an interesting video on the CSIA site on experiential learning. We use the experiential learning model in Aspen.
post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinhetrick View Post

In the future we won't even need ski instructors! Check out this Kickstarter that is developing a wearable technology that can teach better than any run of the mill instructor. 
I don't doubt someone will buy into that but as variable as the snow is a VR model cannot replace a hands on coach. A problem shared with videos and still photos. We certainly can study them in a general way but executing good ski turns is about feel as much as technique.
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinhetrick View Post
 

In the future we won't even need ski instructors! Check out this Kickstarter that is developing a wearable technology that can teach better than any run of the mill instructor. 

 

:rolleyes There are tons of jobs that can be automated. At this point, ski instruction isn't one of them. Automated instruction works well in mechanical, closed settings, or limited decision making settings. I tell you this as someone who's finishing an M.Ed in the field of distance education (where distance can mean either physical or over time). Skiing is an open sport, which means that every performance is unique. A wearable technology can monitor things like pressure and body position. But your wearable technology doesn't understand a lot of factors including: 

  • The terrain
  • The snow conditions
  • The intent of the skier
  • Development strategies for the multitude of potential root causes of a symptom
  • The psychological issues preventing a skier from succeeding
  • Biomechanical issues with the skier

 

So while a wearable technology can report on what's happening, and can help an instructor confirm issues and outcomes, it can't actually determine, presently, how to coach and develop the skier.

post #56 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2 View Post

We've all been in a clinic group with a ski instructor who exhibits one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Talks WAAAAAYYYY too much
2. Asks stupid questions that either a.) have already been discussed had he had been listening to the conversation; or b.) should be common knowledge for every ski instructor (eg. What is a toepiece?)
3. Bogarts the Examiner/Clinician, so he has no time whatsoever for anybody else in the group (often riding up on the lift with the examiner and dominating every conversation)
4. Thinks that he is the greatest skier/instructor in the world and his skiing (as well as his instructing ability) is gold
5. Falls 40 times during the clinic and says comething to the effect of "I really need to adjust the alignment on my boots" or "I really need to sharpen my edges"
6. Blames poor skiing on his inability to get out and "train" as much as he would like (some of these people are the same people you see showing up at 10:00 in the morning - 15 minutes before lineup, and leaving at 3:00 - when there's still an hour of quality skiing left)
7. Blames his poor skiing relative to others on the fact that he's not as young as he used to be and he's not able to make the moves he used to (I've seen 70-80 year old guys RIP, so unless you're older than that, stop making excuses)
8. Gets done skiing and still talks WAAYYYY too much about skiing (in the bar, in the hotel, in the hot tub. . . often accompanied by demonstrations of the proper movement patterns and center of mass movement in his jeans or bathing suit)

MOST people in PSIA are cool, laid back types who just love to ski. But some people are way too Type-A, way too Obsessive/Compulsive, and way too perfectionist to be good company.

I'm not advocating elimination of these people from PSIA, I'm just asking the question. Are ski instructors lame?

 

WAAAAYYYYYYY too much TMI

post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey View Post

I see a lot of "sour grapes" (i.e. jealousy) resulting in criticism of ski instructors and teachers.  From the lower-level teachers who can't ski to a top level, the common disparaging boast is "Look at that teacher:  He was a racer and therefore isn't such a good teacher".  This serves to self-justify the speaker's doubtful claim to be a better teacher than the ex-racer. 

I can say that in my case, it is not sour grapes. I barely remember 9 years ago when I wrote this post, and I'm assuming it was during one of my periods of self reflection, where I try to back up and take a big picture look at the choices I'm making and determine if the path that I'm on is the path that I'm sure that I want to be on. This post was worded a bit harshly, and I think I've matured since I was in my mid 20s. Also, I've discovered that everybody is interesting in their own way, and if someone is passionate about something, we should do our best to cultivate that passion, instead of trying to bring them down.

If you want an update, I overcame my reservations and stuck with ski Instructing through these 9 years, continuing to rise through the ranks of PSIA. How far have I gotten? Read this:

http://skiequalsmc2.blogspot.com/2016/02/im-going-to-breckenridge.html

EDIT: I switched the link to the desktop site instead of the mobile site (made this post from my phone last night)
Edited by mattchuck2 - 2/24/16 at 7:31am
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