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Slippery Slope?

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
Well I wouldn't have thought this would have happened but yet here we are. In a certain recent thread, a certain recent new member who is considered to be "one of the finest ski professionals" but his foot in it. Subsequently as you would expect, the Epic Ski community, or "mob" as described by the Epic Ski rulers (moderators) jumped in calling BUNK.

Well the thread was closed, and stern talking too was admininstered to all by the Epic Ski Matriarch, and the certain new member has now declared that he will only defend himself on a all PSIA run, PSIA member board (translation - where he won't be challenged).

Progress? I think not.
post #2 of 42
The funny thing is that the thread was MILD in comparison to many others around here.
post #3 of 42

Psia Bunk?

Darn did I miss some real BUNKERIZATION?
post #4 of 42
NO. Someone was about to explain a new ski technique where in you have your outside ski rotating about your cm, carving a nice curved path like it would if it were resisting centrifugal force, but really almost unloaded while swinging around at the end of its leash (leg), until all its rotational inertia and that of the attached leg gets transferred into linear kinetic energy directed down the fall line as the inside ski directs the skiers path, but his elocution was lacking and he set off too many bunk meters.
post #5 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
NO. Someone was about to explain a new ski technique where in you have your outside ski rotating about your cm, carving a nice curved path like it would if it were resisting centrifugal force, but really almost unloaded while swinging around at the end of its leash (leg), until all its rotational inertia and that of the attached leg gets transferred into linear kinetic energy directed down the fall line as the inside ski directs the skiers path, but his elocution was lacking and he set off too many bunk meters.
OK, I need to go get a beer and read this again. Maybe then I can begin to get a handle on the text. Deep, very deep.
post #6 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
NO. Someone was about to explain a new ski technique where in you have your outside ski rotating about your cm, carving a nice curved path like it would if it were resisting centrifugal force, but really almost unloaded while swinging around at the end of its leash (leg), until all its rotational inertia and that of the attached leg gets transferred into linear kinetic energy directed down the fall line as the inside ski directs the skiers path, but his elocution was lacking and he set off too many bunk meters.

Ghost,

What you are describing is simply a detuned version of the "Wagon Wheel Turns"....nothing new about them at all....

Wagon Wheel turns are just a neat trick that looks kinda cool and funny at the same time. In a true Wagon Wheel the outside ski is fullly unloaded, and the "trick" is to actually get it as high off the snow as possible, while getting your hips as low as possible...What you are describing is just detuned version in that instead of the downhill ski being fully unloaded it is "almost unloaded"....same thing in real terms, only difference is degrees.....
post #7 of 42
Well it's new to some people, but I suppose you're right. I haven't seen anything really new for a long time.
post #8 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Well it's new to some people, but I suppose you're right. I haven't seen anything really new for a long time.
And that is just it...isn't it? I think to many people here are looking for something really new....when in reality that happens very rarley...often newbies confuse "what is old is new again" with really new....in skiing, at least to the extent I understand it really new is limited to this (in order):

Skiing moves from a necessary mode of transportation to a "sport"
Heel is permentley fixed to the ski
Metal edges
Head develops a true composite ski
Plastic boots (might have this order mixed with above)
Some guy gets one really fat ski and stands on it sideways like a surboard
Shape Skis

That is it kids....each of the above or course led to changes in technqiue/style etc, but generally all new things were derived from a technoligical advance...no tech advance...nothing really new to talk about.
post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Wagon Wheel turns are just a neat trick that looks kinda cool and funny at the same time. In a true Wagon Wheel the outside ski is fullly unloaded, and the "trick" is to actually get it as high off the snow as possible, while getting your hips as low as possible...What you are describing is just detuned version in that instead of the downhill ski being fully unloaded it is "almost unloaded"....same thing in real terms, only difference is degrees.....
I will admit that these are new to me. Are they a technique that is used on the WC GS race course?
post #10 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I will admit that these are new to me. Are they a technique that is used on the WC GS race course?

Man your a stirrer Max.... Too funny. In the odd chance you are not kidding, Wagon Wheel turns are just neat trick to do for fun... rather then any real learning or demo of any actual ski technique. Unless you want to argue that anything that gets you out of the comfort zone is learning...which I agree with btw....but it is really nothing more then that.
post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Ghost,

What you are describing is simply a detuned version of the "Wagon Wheel Turns"....nothing new about them at all....

Wagon Wheel turns are just a neat trick that looks kinda cool and funny at the same time. In a true Wagon Wheel the outside ski is fullly unloaded, and the "trick" is to actually get it as high off the snow as possible, while getting your hips as low as possible...What you are describing is just detuned version in that instead of the downhill ski being fully unloaded it is "almost unloaded"....same thing in real terms, only difference is degrees.....
and herein is where skidude hijacks the point of thread,....this was not the subject of the thread.


My complaint, as I iterated to skidude in his abrupt and rude pm to me, that I come to EPIC to listen and learn. The thread in question offered me none of that. Instead of any qualified opinion that would say something like, dogonjon, I disagree and this is why, I read things about him posting a video and other non essientials like that. I am not an expert skier and I walked away with the opinion that neither are many of you.

So it made sense to me that if dogonjon wanted to contiue the discussion he would offer it in a format where it could be discussed instead of hijacked. Makes sense to me and I looked forward tohearing what he has to say on the subject.

Incidentially, I too found the arrows pointless (no pun intended) and I think the snow is the basis for support.

My expectation would be that you all as a community would be here to educate each other not disgrace yourselves as immature and borish want to be's.
post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine View Post
My expectation would be that you all as a community would be here to educate each other not disgrace yourselves as immature and borish want to be's.
So, you think that Vail SnoPro is a want to be? Let's take a look at his experience:

39 seasons , and counting, as a full time PSIA Level 3
instructor / coach. Examiner since 1979. International and World Cup experience.

Hmm...what do we make of his opinion of the dogonjon's post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
I have to say it, since no one else has... your description of Hermann's skiing has defaced this picture more than the colorful arrows...

Just reading your post #61 has my bunk meter needle way past the redline... In fact, its way over in the Troll Zone!

If this is your true and honest understanding of contemporary skiing, you need to get out and ski with a few of my friends on the Mammoth Ski School. I have no doubt they can help straighten you out a bit...
post #13 of 42
Thread Starter 
I don't know how someone can hi-jack their own thread....I started it! How can I Hi-jack it? Max asked a question, I answered it, that is how online forums work.....most threads end up miles away from where they started.

PS: I sent you a PM explaining the arrows.
post #14 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
OK, I need to go get a beer and read this again. Maybe then I can begin to get a handle on the text. Deep, very deep.

LOL, I'm glad you said that, because I just read that and said...huh???
post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
So, you think that Vail SnoPro is a want to be? Let's take a look at his experience:

39 seasons , and counting, as a full time PSIA Level 3instructor / coach. Examiner since 1979. International and World Cup experience.

Hmm...what do we make of his opinion of the dogonjon's post?
Sorry, but the tone of that post does not mirror any examiners that I know of, not to mention several other things that I said. Perhaps not a want to be, but there is much to be desired in an examiner who approaches an technical analysis with that tone, that approach. Just my opinion. Most examiners do not speak specifically but speak in generalizations in order to keep the topic objective and where he had the opportunity to shift the focus to a less personal and more ski educated and related focus, Vail failed. He is an examiner and an educater, so what gives. I learned nothing from his post. Next?
post #16 of 42
ha ha. Alright..you're getting it Marueen. You can dish it too....

In all fairness though, VSP is in fact a well respected Ski Pro. FWIW.
post #17 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I will admit that these are new to me. Are they a technique that is used on the WC GS race course?
I'm not a wc racer, Not even a PSIA instructor, just over-educated, but what the heck!

Do skiers use "Wagon-wheel" turns on the WC? No, it's not a turn they practice. I don't think even Bode does.

Do they convert rotational energy to linear kinetic energy? Yes. Do they sometimes use the same principle (as what we'll call wagon-wheel turns) while using more weight on the inside leg with next to no force on the outside ski to reposition their cm for a better line choice for the next turn? I would imagine so. Do they think of it as a wagon-wheel turn? Probably not, but I can't say. People have all kinds of different models (eg waist-steering) to help them think of energy changes torque balances between linear and rotational motion whether they are into racing or moguls.
post #18 of 42
Just remember gang, it is not others tone or content that we should concern ourselves with, but our own. This is the only thing we have control of,,,our own words and tone. We can still post our opinions and wake up the next morning with a quite mind, having no regrets. Or log on and find ourselves saying, let's back off and give someone a chance. Erring on the side of civility won't loose debate points, but it does contribute to good healthy debate.

I've seen this happen on other types of forums too. In particular the DIY audio forums. Certain qualified individuals will go on and on about which type of measurements determine a drivers usablity and distortion rates. It gets real nasty and personal sometimes. In the end both camps design excellent loudspeakers, even though they approach it from different perspectives. And so it goes.

Hey, if anyone is interested check out my new speaker build in the gallery at www.theaudiologic.com
post #19 of 42
Aaaaah. Yet another thread? Whew!

In DOJ's defense, I think we've all accidently wiped our asses with our shirt tails at least once on this, and other, forums. Can't say I agree with VailSP's approach to it either, regardless of how much I respect his opinion (usually). Let this go... Please.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...."

Spag
post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine View Post
Sorry, but the tone of that post does not mirror any examiners that I know of...
You seem to be ignoring the tone of dogonjon's opening post. Here's an honest question for you. In a person to person setting would dogonjon use the phrase "REALITY CHECK" when talking to a skier that held a viewpoint he thought was incorrect?

He not only started an open salvo against BigE and others with that post but he then closed the post by ripping on the picture which was from Ron LeMaster. So, not only is he disagreeing with many fairly knowledgeable skiers, racers, instructors, race coaches, and at least one examiner. He also disagreed with Ron LeMaster (Ron is a technical advisor for the US Ski Team). I think its fair to say he stepped on a hornets nest with that post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine View Post
I learned nothing from his post. Next?
Ditto with regards to dogonjon's post. He made a controversial claim of what HM was doing. To make matters worse, rather than proposing it as a possibility he stated it as fact while ridiculing others.
post #21 of 42
Geez, guys, as Max suggests, it shouldn't surprise anyone that people respond at least as much to tone as to content. It's human nature, and it didn't arise with the Internet. Couched in tones of bitterness, ridicule, arrogance, or sarcasm, even the most brilliantly illuminating and accurate post is not likely to be received well. Anyone who expects otherwise should pay more attention!

Moving on to the "other" topic in this thread--this "wagon-wheel turn." I hadn't heard that expression before, but I agree that it can be a good exercise, and it can be fun. "Are they a technique that is used on the WC GS race course?" you ask, Max. Take a look at these:




and my favorite:



Clearly, the answer is "yes"--it is a technique used by top racers! Just as clearly, I hope, it was not the conscious intent of any of these skiers to do "wagon-wheel turns," or any other particular type of turn or technique--or even to balance on their inside skis. They were just racing, trying to get around the gates and across the finish line as quickly as possible. And this happened! As successful racers, they brought a wealth of skill to the game and, at least in these instances, those inside skis and their ability to balance on them and use them effectively came in handy.

I guarantee that the movements depicted here were "accidents,' in the sense that they didn't plan them, and that they would probably even explain them as mistakes. But I also guarantee that they were NOT accidents, in the sense that they have all trained and practiced skiing on the inside ski--possibly even practiced "wagon-wheel turns"--and have incorporated these moves seamlessly into their technical repertoires.

The mistake that is all too commonly made is to look at pictures like these and proclaim that you've discovered a new technique--the new way that the best racers ski, and to then "try" to ski that way yourself. Remember--that's not what these racers were trying to do! Like Phil and Steve Mahre's famous "White Pass Turn" (another turn that incorporated balance on the inside ski), it results from talented and well-trained athletes reacting skillfully to a situation--NOT from the intent to ski "a technique."

Situational movements--moves that "break the rules"--are just as important in skiing as "default movements." But the two should not be confused. Is it good to practice skiing on the inside ski? Obviously! Is it what you should try to "do" as a fundamental movement of your turns? No. And I'm sure that these racers would agree--as would Phil and Steve Mahre--the outside ski is where your balance should be, generally, by default.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
and my favorite:

That is amazing. Consider the forces that are hammering the inside knee joint. Wow, just wow.
post #23 of 42
Yeah, I agree, Max. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that this skier wouldn't have chosen to be in this situation on purpose! It's pretty cool, though, isn't it?



Best regards,
Bob
post #24 of 42


Bob, great post, and thank you for clearly identifying the difference between a "recovery" move and something else which is perhaps more "ideal". I think the point of all this, is that practicing wagon wheel turns is not the meat and potatoe turn to use, but rather mastering something like that will sooner or later come in handy when you find yourself through one reason or another too far inside, losing outside ski dominance (which might be considered more "ideal"), yet mastery of this other skill enables you to save the race.

This is definitely why mastery of all sorts of outside-the-box ski moves will come in handy eventually, and probably more often than some people would like to admit.

However its also important to keep track of what the "ideal" is and strive for it.
post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Well I wouldn't have thought this would have happened but yet here we are. In a certain recent thread, a certain recent new member who is considered to be "one of the finest ski professionals" but his foot in it. Subsequently as you would expect, the Epic Ski community, or "mob" as described by the Epic Ski rulers (moderators) jumped in calling BUNK.

Well the thread was closed, and stern talking too was admininstered to all by the Epic Ski Matriarch, and the certain new member has now declared that he will only defend himself on a all PSIA run, PSIA member board (translation - where he won't be challenged).

Progress? I think not.

I'm with PeteNI, What did we miss ? I can appreciate what BobBarnes had to say in this thread, but the lack of frame of ref to the orig. thread makes this thread pretty limited. Only those who read the orig thread can benefit or those who are taking stabs in the dark because they missed it & have to fill in the blanks with their own imaginations. Our imaginations really make things bigger than what the reality is/was. Can you toss me a link ?
post #26 of 42

No, Don't !

Don't toss me a link. I do have a vague memory of a thread this week, a picture & colorful arrows and a remark of messing up a picture. I got what I got from the thread, didn't care what someone had to say about the picture & arrows.wondered momentarily about the brusqueness of the comment.

This past week there has been lots of comments ragging about this forum & egos etc etc etc.

I'm compelled to add 25 yrs of experience communicating w/individuals through computer interface vs real interface. ALWAYS remember that you are often reading thoughts that are "in the moment" vs thought out & thought out again towards a larger universal understanding. You do not receive the benefit of face to face communications with voice inflections & facial expression, not to mention the hand motion thing & therefore a person often reads more into the written message than was intended. And responds as such. Often you do not have the benefit of actually knowing & experiencing how this person expresses themselves. 1st rule - do not read more into what the person is saying than that person themselves intended to say. Ask before assuming. 2nd rule - be respectful. Following these & other interpersonal skills goes a long way towards forwarding ideas and communications and removes alot of B.S. static. Off course , reading more into things than what is expressly expressed can be fun, just don't publicly denegrate or degenerate too far.
post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post

Situational movements--moves that "break the rules"--are just as important in skiing as "default movements." But the two should not be confused.
That technique I use to stretch a turn when I come up short. I use it in the bumps and it's not all that uncommon for me. It's fun to do and comes in handy when I'm slacking.

It's like you are trying to postpone engaging the outside ski.
post #28 of 42
Sometimes learning how to move is as important as learning what to move. Once you can marshal your movements and control your inertia (rotational about different axis and linear) in various ways, you get a lot better at situational movements including but not limited to recoveries.
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
You seem to be ignoring the tone of dogonjon's opening post. Here's an honest question for you. In a person to person setting would dogonjon use the phrase "REALITY CHECK" when talking to a skier that held a viewpoint he thought was incorrect?

Probably not. Just people he was comfortable with.

He not only started an open salvo against BigE and others with that post but he then closed the post by ripping on the picture which was from Ron LeMaster.

Ron LeMaster is an icon but he is not above professional criticism.

So, not only is he disagreeing with many fairly knowledgeable skiers, racers, instructors, race coaches, and at least one examiner. He also disagreed with Ron LeMaster (Ron is a technical advisor for the US Ski Team).
You can't put a criteria on this, ski instructors at Jon's level, disagree. It is how they learn. It was the way it came across to you that was the problem.

I think its fair to say he stepped on a hornets nest with that post.
That is not rocket science.


I am not necessarily ignoring Jon,s tone, and I would not start a person to person conversation with "reality check" when taking a counter position to someone else. If I were as bothered by Jons tone as many of you were and just as many were not, I would have PM'd him about it. That is what skidude did to me and it was enlightening, and redirecting, without being embarassing to say the least. I learned alot from skidude in one PM.

That being said, IMO the community collectively missed an opportunity to redirect this thread and becuase of that it actually may have been a huge waste of time. However, I think it would be worthwhile to challenge our thinking. That is; if you agree with Jon try to proove him wrong. If you disagree with Jon, then try to proove his theories right. That would be, to me, the basis of a valid and worthwhile arguement.

Ditto with regards to dogonjon's post. He made a controversial claim of what HM was doing. To make matters worse, rather than proposing it as a possibility he stated it as fact while ridiculing others.
I don't defend this because all ski instructors do this. If there are 500 people in a room how do you know which one is the ski instructor. He'll tell you. This is just personal and you should try to get past it. Does this make sense, Becuase I am not trying to offend anyone. But I am not in agreement with the picture either.:
post #30 of 42
Well that is true what you say at the end, but its also true why Jon should not have his feathers ruffled that so many people jumped on him about this statement.

Look, I'm sure Jon is a nice guy, a knowledgeable guy. Frankly, I thought that post was so completely opposite of reality that I actually thought it was a cleverly worded prank...someone deliberately trying to take concepts related to skiing and muddle them up as badly as possible in a paragraph. i actually contacted some people I know on Epic via PM to find out if it was one of them playing a prank under a different name. that's how outlandish I felt the statement was. It definitely came across as a statement from someone that doesn't know very much reality about skiing and is happy to share it, and with attitude. The statement was just RIPE for being torn down. I'm not saying that Jon doesn't know about skiing, I haven't heard enough from him to know yet. There are higher ups vouching for him, but some of those higher ups haven't always impressed me with their technical knowledge either to be perfectly frank...so who knows. The jury is still in session.

Perhaps Jon had a good idea to share and if so I would love it if he would step forward now and present his case again...try new wording, contribute to the forum. As it is, he has done the equivalent of lob a snowball and then hide behind a tree while the rest of us duke it out. What you say about nobody being beyond reproach at all levels is absolutely true... Given the forum unity which occurred on this issue towards the post from Jon...I'd have to say that Jon needs to be the one listening to that message right now. The rest of us need to learn how to be nicer about how we scold though...I agree.

As far as having the rest of us try to discuss his original statements, there is absolutely no point. The original paragraph and follow up quote from HH were completely jumbled with errata that lead to nothing but speculation about what he meant. I'd also like to say, that leading up to the post from John was a useful discussion started by BigE about balance and balance points. In fact the LeMaster photo in question made absolute sense in the context of the discussion that was taking place up until Jon's post. After that, all hell broke loose. Jon, if you have something positive to add and contribute, then please step forward.
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