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# Outside vs Inside Leg - Page 2

wrong. that's all I have to say.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by GarryZ If you are balanced over the outside ski and you want to move quickly into a new turn loading and standing on the inside ski will topple your mass into the new turn .
No, it won't. It simply changes which ski is carrying the load and moves the load from a strong straight leg to a weak bent inside leg.

To release the turn something else has to happen.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 No, it won't. It simply changes which ski is carrying the load and moves the load from a strong straight leg to a weak bent inside leg. To release the turn something else has to happen.
Keep extending the inside leg.
Gary are you trying to say that if HM extends his inside leg starting from the point in that photo that his turn will tighten??? WRONG! At that part of the turn its also way way too early to be starting an ILE. Later on in the turn we can consider the ever so controversial ILE.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by GarryZ Keep extending the inside leg.
That would be ILE which would occur later in the turn. And even then they don't load the inside ski at the point dogonjon suggested.
Analyzing one frame is tough. Instead lets consider a sequence. What do you see here:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Analyzing one frame is tough. Instead lets consider a sequence. What do you see here:
Pivoting.
I see some weight on inside ski up until the second frame to the bottom, than at the last frame the inside ski appears to be just adding stability with its tail, not contributing to the arc.
So, in those 6 frames is there any evidence that HM intends to put as much weight as possible on his inside leg?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Skidude72 Pivoting.
OK, but is he pivoting in an effort to load the inside ski with as much weight as possible?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 OK, but is he pivoting in an effort to load the inside ski with as much weight as possible?
Not to me there isnt, but is this always the case.

As somone stated in another thread the mastery of skiing is the ability to be dynamic. Sure we strive for an optimal, as thought in the books, interface with the snow, but ultimately its what the situation at hand requires to get the job done. I know...I'm Captain Obvious.
I posted last night but it was intercepted by someone and isn't here today. I was interested in how HM was less countered and had less angulation as he approached the gate. It seemed to me like he was still outside ski dominant at this time, but he was in a good position to move to his inside ski and his less than ordinary position suggests to me that he had a less than ordinary tactic in mind. Anyone know how he actually skied the rest of the turn?
I think the timing is being neglected here. Many racers are shifting weight to the inside ski very early in the turn. Watch Pearson in GS or Schild in SL and you will often see an active shift to that inside ski , sometimes before the boots clear the gate. In those turns, weight distribution will be shared (in some porportion) by the time the maximum g forces are obtained, something that makes good biomechanical sense.

### A slightly different interpretation

This is what the photo montage Max posted looks like to me:

The skier pivots between the third and fourth images, and sticks his outer ski way out there. But the path of his CM has not changed much yet, so there isn't much centrifugal effect to make g-forces to stand against. Maybe he can't stand on that ski yet. By the image after that, his CM's path has curved, his outside ski has hooked up, and he can stand on it.

In other words, his body position is appropriate for the turn after it is fully developed, not that brief moment after transition.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Analyzing one frame is tough. Instead lets consider a sequence. What do you see here:
What d I see? Hmm... looks like he switched from Langes to Atomics...

Kinda looks like the infamous ILE to me. More ILE than OLR anyway. It looks like he's quite a bit taller in frames 3 and 4 than in 1 and 2. Look at his skis in frame 4 too, he's got 'em bent pretty good in the high C part of the turn. Anyway, maybe Dogon was right about the transition.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by epic Kinda looks like the infamous ILE to me. More ILE than OLR anyway.
Hmm...the release is happening between frames 1 and 2 and a hair after (wish we had a frame the skis at neutral). I don't see any ILE there.

So many of us see different things in these images.
I see no pivot. He simply rolls his ski on edge then stands on predominatley his outside ski. I will almost guarantee at this speed almost the amount of counter in the 5th frame alsmot 100% of his weight is on his outside ski.

I like the term virtual edge for the LTE of the inside ski. it is there and slightly tracking but no real amount of weight on it.

Looks pretty close to neutral in 3rd frame. you can see his inside ski is realtively flat.
I see just enough weight on the inside ski to keep him from augmenting the tipping angle and crashing into the gate.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Your biomechanics do not allow you to support the loads skiing creates on the outside edge of the inside ski.
I posit that this statement is only true in a limited context. Surely we can support larger loads with the outside leg, and especially if we are skiing in a way we consider fundamentally good. But I've seen athletes ski pretty darned well on the inside leg...

Trying to determine weight distribution from a few frame captures seems bizarre to me. You may be able to describe a general trend, but why try and get specific about it?

Way back in high school I tried to do some instrumented testing of skiing to get some empirical data. I think it would be fun to return to that project with better hardware and more sensors. Measuring ski forces with load cells would probably be quite a project...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Garrett I posit that this statement is only true in a limited context. Surely we can support larger loads with the outside leg, and especially if we are skiing in a way we consider fundamentally good. But I've seen athletes ski pretty darned well on the inside leg....
Like Bode Miller at Wengen. Or any 3-track racer.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Max_501 Hmm...the release is happening between frames 1 and 2 and a hair after (wish we had a frame the skis at neutral). I don't see any ILE there. So many of us see different things in these images.
We all see different things for sure but there must be a universal truth in this case also. And there is. It cannot only be assumptions and guessing. I would like for us to get past that milestone.

IMHO
ILE: both legs are extended at the same time
OLF: both legs are flexed at the same time

ILE: extending inside leg to relese
OLF: flexing outside leg to relese

He flexes his right old outside leg that becomes his new inside leg from frame 1 through out the whole sequenze. He extends his left new outside leg from frame 2 - 4. One can argue that neutral is not frame 2 but that does not change the fact that his old outside leg flexes a considerable ammount before any extention of his left leg occours. This is what we call an OLF relese. As pressure is applied in frame 5 he maintains firm shin pressure with his left leg slightly flexed but flexes even more later on as more pressure is applied and in frame 6 he prepares for relesing the turn. Generally speaking, long leg/short leg. Dynamic flexion and extention through out the whole sequenze by both legs. The reason the outside leg remains a bit flexed and bent at the knee as pressure is at the most is so that he can push on it if needed. You cannot push on a fully extended leg.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Garrett But I've seen athletes ski pretty darned well on the inside leg...
Better as they do on the outside leg!?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Garrett I posit that this statement is only true in a limited context. Surely we can support larger loads with the outside leg, and especially if we are skiing in a way we consider fundamentally good. But I've seen athletes ski pretty darned well on the inside leg...
The design of the foot is such that higher weights can be borne by the big toe side than the little toe side. The first three metatarsals, starting at the big toe, are directly connected to the heel. The final two are not. Their functions are different. The outside of the foot is designed to assist the foot when adapting to terrain -- the foot rolls to the inside to bear load (consider walking and the time from heel strike to inversion).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Garrett Trying to determine weight distribution from a few frame captures seems bizarre to me. You may be able to describe a general trend, but why try and get specific about it? Way back in high school I tried to do some instrumented testing of skiing to get some empirical data. I think it would be fun to return to that project with better hardware and more sensors. Measuring ski forces with load cells would probably be quite a project...
Sure, it's better to measure it, but coaches and instructors do not have the equipment to do that on hill. We only have what we see, and what we've felt while making the same turns, through the load cells already on the bottoms of our feet. So, the more accurately we can see this, the better coaches and instructors we will be.
Searched for an old therad on this issue I started a few years ago and found it here:

Here is the link to the measurement device I was pointed to:

http://www.tekscan.com/images/Skiing-Video-Graph.gif

Should give us a good pickture of how weight is distributed between both legs.
Interesting image, in the second link.

IMO, that pressure distribution between feet is sensible -- it shows that ball of the outside foot bearing most of the weight, and the outside heel of the inside foot.

This rearward-outside pressure on the inside foot is exactly what you would expect when you are trying to use the inside edge. The pressure is back to the outside, just as on heel strike when walking, to keep the foot from inverting and rolling onto big toe edge.

It also may explain the motivation that drives some skiers to dump their weight back and inside. This is where people may move their weight to satisfy the direction to "ski more two-footed". And that's not a very bad thing, unless they keep it back there....
Good observations BigE. It also explains why deeply inlined turns are outside dominant and why its possible to weight both skis simultaniously if simply inclining just a little bit. Like most weekend skiers.
Here's an article written by Gurshman.

While the focus is on cross blocking there is some interesting material on outside/inside skis.
Max,

i think this article may even be better. and really drives home rolling the inside knee (out) more towards the inside of the turn to achieve parallel shins and matched edge angles.

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/parallel_shins.htm
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Lars I'm agreeing with you Max, on all points you present. (ok Moderators make note of this) . I guess the question this presents is ok, how much weight should be on the downhill/outside ski? Certainly enough to be balanced enough carry the transition till it becomes the new inside ski correct?
you shouldn't transition this until you enter the fall line, or you might hurt yourself and it will slow you down.
The inside leg must remain engaged in the boot cuff through the apex, this is what Herman is doing. If we don't keep that inside cuff in contact and prevent the excessive lead of the inside ski through the apes, we will not be in a place to make the transfer to that ski as our new platform for the next turn, we will be behind in the back seat. So, although the outside ski has more force directed through it, we really need to put some mental effort into the inside ski. We are all pretty good at getting pressure to the outside ski, but really hold it too long because we have neglected to keep "over" the inside ski. My .02
Greg
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