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PSIA Skiing Concepts 2005

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
I believe it was Heluvaskier who requested that we post a copy of the PSIA Alpine Team's collaborative document compiled by Doug Pierini and Michael Rogan called PSIA Skiing Concepts 2005. Here it is:

SKIING CONCEPTS – ALPINE TEAM TRAINING – 2004-05
compiled by Doug Pierini and Michael Rogan

We are concept specific in forming the images of American skiing. The details are manifested in the individual expression of our performance in creating desired outcomes. These concepts have a spectrum of movements that are tied to tactical applications.

STANCE, BALANCE AND DIRECTIONAL MOVEMENTS
· The skier is in balance when they can have a positive, selective effect on any of the skills with either leg at any time.
· The entire body is involved and participates in balancing. The focus is on balancing in the future.
· Versatile/adaptable stance: relates to the functionality of the feet and the desired outcome rather than a specific measured distance of separation.
· The position of the hips over the feet (fore/aft) will play a major role in the parallel relationship of the skis and promote the ability to use corresponding edges. Understand that you may adjust this relationship as you encounter changes in terrain and snow conditions.
· The flexing activity originates from the ankle to support movements through the boot cuffs. Settling in the knees and hips could necessitate a re-centering move, diverging ski tips and/or a sequential edge release.
· Note: Insufficient forward movement promotes inclination of the upper body and weaker lower body angles. In addition you may see over-pivoting of the skis, late pressure application and a divergence of the ski tips. Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips.

FUNCTIONAL BODY ALIGNMENT
· Functional body alignment (strong inside half) refers to the ability to maintain the entire inside half of the body (foot, knee, hip, arm, hand and shoulder) in an appropriate alignment for the desired outcome. The amount of lead in the ski tips should match the alignment of the body and is influenced by the pitch of the slope.
· As the turn develops, the focus should be to keep the inside half of the body raised and ahead of the outside half.
· The relationship of the upper and lower body is a key factor in creating the alignment that allows maximum strength of the outside leg. This will help produce a turn that can be quick and accurate to develop to the apex and a powerful stance through the finish.
· Strongest angles are developed at the apex of the turn.

LOWER BODY ROTATIONAL MOVEMENTS
· The core supplies the strength and functional tension to the inside half of the body to facilitate the steering activity of the legs.
· Steering movements of the legs allow us to adjust the radius of the turn.
· Turn transitions: the lower body releases and realigns with the upper body.
· Ski into and out of counter rather than making a strong counter movement.

EDGE RELEASE / EDGE ENGAGEMENT
· Focus on moving forward, in the direction of the new turn and through the boot cuffs.
· Both skis should move to the new edges simultaneously versus sequentially, while striving to maintain ski/snow contact.
· Edge release and re-engagement should happen in one fluid movement.
· The positive engagement of the skis’ tips should draw you into the turn versus displacing the tails to start the turn.
· We create the image of arcing into the apex versus just arcing away from it.
· Strive to use the skis’ design as effectively as possible.
· Note: Look for reasons why the skier may be forced into a sequential edge release pattern. It could be because the center of mass has not moved forward enough. Is there excessive lead change to initiate edge release?

PRESSURE MANAGEMENT
· Lateral weight transfer is a component of pressure management. It can happen progressively or abruptly, depending on the desired outcome.
· Maintain the "strength in length" of the outside leg during the highest loading portion of the turn unless yielding to the influence of terrain and snow conditions or releasing the turn.
· Tactics, terrain, speed, snow conditions and turn shape will alter the timing, intensity and the amount of weight distribution along the length of the ski and foot to foot.
· Pressure management incorporates aspects of fore/aft adjustments as well as lateral movements.

POLE USAGE / ARM MOVEMENTS
· Appropriate pole usage can help us secure/maintain the present turn or initiate the next turn.
· Proper pole usage requires discipline and accuracy of arm movements and pole swing but not always a pole plant.
· It is the upper body and core that positions the arms and the arms that can take the upper body out of position.
· A rotary type pole swing holds on to the old turn. A more linear swing helps to accurately direct movements into the new turn.

UTILIZING THESE CONCEPTS: Keep in mind how we would use the above outline to adjust the skiing focus for different age groups, equipment types, personal style and desired outcomes. The purpose is not to create an exact template, but rather a conceptual outline. The concepts will evolve with industry trends to support the needs of our customers while assisting the teaching pro in creating innovative lesson plans.

WE TEACH PEOPLE, NOT A SYSTEM.
CREATED AND DEVELOPED BY THE MEMBERS OF THE PSIA NATIONAL ALPINE TEAM.
post #2 of 29
nolo,
I was actually referring to the 20-some minute DVD by the same name. I apologize for the misunderstanding, but this should provide interesting discussion none-the-less.
Later
GREG
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
You must be thinking of the Alpine Technical Video.

From the PSIA website:
Quote:
Captures the look and feel of contemporary skiing. In this video, shot at Snowmass and Jackson Hole, PSIA Alpine Team members guide you on the path to great skiing and teaching. A companion to the Alpine Technical Manual, this video visits the concepts of skills development, showing how ski performance affects the way instructors blend skills for optimal results. It highlights introduces "stepping stones" options to build progressions for unique and effective lessons. 20 minutes. VHS. 2002.
post #4 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
You must be thinking of the Alpine Technical Video.
Nope... This one is called Skiing Concepts (Steve might be able to confirm), and is the video version of what you just posted. Not only does it detail most of the bullet points, but it shows the skiing that is supposed to demostrate that skill - as performed by several member of the current D-Team. It was shot in the 2005/2006 season and has been talked about here before in conjunction with JGS2. I don't think it was ever publicly released - and may have only been for Ed Staff.

Later

GREG
post #5 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I · The flexing activity originates from the ankle to support movements through the boot cuffs. Settling in the knees and hips could necessitate a re-centering move, diverging ski tips and/or a sequential edge release.
Let me get this straight:

Skiing so that re-centering moves are necessary is to be avoided?
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
Your reading comprehension is very selective, BigE. The word GROSS should have been inserted before re-centering to more perfectly convey the common side-effects of skiing from a seated position, which include divergence and a sequential edge change.
post #7 of 29
I can make some sense of most of these but in order to do that I've got to bring a heck of a lot more specifics about movements into the mix. These seem so vague as to mean many different things to different people. Looks like an attempt to do something by committee while being sure nobody's ideas are contradicted.

I know some of you think these provide great guidance but they remind me of a research grant that talks all around the research topic without ever getting to the important specifics of the relevant research design. Certainly not something that would encourage me to get involved.
post #8 of 29
It's a committee summation of aspects of skiing, not a lesson plan.
post #9 of 29
Si,

You nailed it.
post #10 of 29
"Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips."

Could someone help me understand this more clearly?

I really like everything I read and would love to see the video if it surfaces!
post #11 of 29
Quote:
The skier is in balance when they can have a positive, selective effect on any of the skills with either leg at any time.



Oh,,, so this is where that quote came from in BigE's thread. Didn't know when I posted in his thread. Does explain the clamor to defend it over there, though.
post #12 of 29
Does that list still represent current PSIA concepts as of 2007-08?

What about that video footage. Come out come out wherever you are....
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Your reading comprehension is very selective, BigE. The word GROSS should have been inserted before re-centering to more perfectly convey the common side-effects of skiing from a seated position, which include divergence and a sequential edge change.
Thanks nolo,

perhaps you can help me with the notion of divergence.

If I ski with constant horizontal separation, say my feet are always directly under my hips, as is directed in another concept, then won't the vertical separation as I flex the inside leg and extend the outside leg leave divergent tracks? I mean, my track width will increase.

A poster in another thread suggested this too is to be avoided, which is in agreement with these concepts.

I'm confused -- is this divergence an OK divergence?
post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Divergence of the ski tips. I should have clarified that, BigE. Scissoring and stemming are both common effects of being in the backseat.
post #15 of 29
Thanks again.
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si View Post
I can make some sense of most of these but in order to do that I've got to bring a heck of a lot more specifics about movements into the mix. These seem so vague as to mean many different things to different people. Looks like an attempt to do something by committee while being sure nobody's ideas are contradicted.

I know some of you think these provide great guidance but they remind me of a research grant that talks all around the research topic without ever getting to the important specifics of the relevant research design. Certainly not something that would encourage me to get involved.
Si, the 05-06 version has the following disclaimer on the top of the document. Maybe wigs or weems can get us last years changes...


"The Skiing Concepts enable us to express how the skills combine and come to life. This document is a sketch pad for technical thought and is free to evolve and change as our beliefs change.


UTILIZING THESE CONCEPTS: Keep in mind how to adjust the skiing focus for different age groups, equipment types, personal style and desired outcomes. The purpose is not to create an exact template, but rather a conceptual outline. The concepts will evolve with industry trends to support the needs of our customers while assisting the teaching pro in creating innovative lesson plans."
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
"Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips."

Could someone help me understand this more clearly?

I really like everything I read and would love to see the video if it surfaces!
I would like to take a stab at this: (I see this as a 2 parter)

1.Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn:
Pressure should be dynamic through out the turn. That is the pressure at the begining of the turn should increase throughout the turn until you extend into the next turn.

2.Pressure control movements should initiate with the ankle flexing creating dynamic pressure against the cuff of the boots rather than using the hips or knees to increase pressure at the cuff of the boot.

Ok, be gentle
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Thanks nolo,

perhaps you can help me with the notion of divergence.

If I ski with constant horizontal separation, say my feet are always directly under my hips, as is directed in another concept, then won't the vertical separation as I flex the inside leg and extend the outside leg leave divergent tracks?

No, it is like shuffling without shoes on. Choo choo tracks,

I mean, my track width will increase.

Not if you keep your feet under your hip width. (your hips don't get wider do they?

A poster in another thread suggested this too is to be avoided, which is in agreement with these concepts.

I'm confused -- is this divergence an OK divergence?
Nope.


I know how rough ths crowd can be. I can be enlightened.
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine View Post


I would like to take a stab at this: (I see this as a 2 parter)

1.Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn:
Pressure should be dynamic through out the turn. That is the pressure at the begining of the turn should increase throughout the turn until you extend into the next turn.

2.Pressure control movements should initiate with the ankle flexing creating dynamic pressure against the cuff of the boots rather than using the hips or knees to increase pressure at the cuff of the boot.

Ok, be gentle
I took the statement to mean the pressure control movements should ORIGINATE from the ankles rather than the knees or hips. I don't think it implied that we should avoid pressure control movements at the end of the turn. That would seem kinda silly? So I agree more with your part two which seems more accurate. When flexing through the end of the turn this statement suggests the first joint to flex would be the ankle followed by the knees and hips as needed. I also would imagine that the flexion occuring after the fall line aids in decreasing, rather than increasing, pressure.

Increasing the edge angle or tightening the radius will increase the pressure ,However; flexing will serve to decrease or absorb pressure build up and begin the movement of the hips across the skis.
post #20 of 29
White,
My take is that the context of the note is forward movement and it goes on to list some signs and symptoms you will likely see if there is insufficient forward movement. I believe the comment about avoiding pressure control movement at the end of the turn originating from the knees and hips, points out that this is a common tactical solution you will see when someone does not flex the ankles to absorb. What it does is moves the CoM back and in, instead of downhill. How you eliminate that is by starting the flexing in the control phase which at first may seem counter-intuitive. Especially when you consider the Strength in Length bullet in the pressure management part of the outline. How I resolve this is by assuming the highest loading portion of the turn needs to be the control phase not the end of the turn. An additional thought is If you are initiating a flexing of the knees and hips at the end of the turn it is too late to help you mitigate the pressure that is building as you turn away from the fall line.

I noticed the concept paper has a few changes in the 05-06 version which is in keeping with the idea that it is a living document. One of those changes is the elimination of this note at the end of the Stance, Balance, and directional movements topic. I am assuming here but could it be due to the confusion this note caused?
post #21 of 29
Please add how the following correction to my last post. Flexing originating in the ankles that moves up the chain to the knees and hips, starts in the control phase. Sorry for the oversight.
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine View Post
I know how rough ths crowd can be. I can be enlightened.
You haven't seen anything yet.

Just to clarify something I read here earlier

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
If I ski with constant horizontal separation, say my feet are always directly under my hips, as is directed in another concept, then won't the vertical separation as I flex the inside leg and extend the outside leg leave divergent tracks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine
No, it is like shuffling without shoes on. Choo choo tracks,
The only way to maintain a shoe shufling choo choo track, constant track width situation if there is reasonable speed, is to be prepared to have your legs change their horizantal seperation through phases of the turn. They would be cowboy wide at transition and very close together at apex. Thus, if your goal is to maintain a constant track width, the feet CAN NOT remain constantly hip width.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I mean, my track width will increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White_shine
Not if you keep your feet under your hip width. (your hips don't get wider do they?
correct. Your hip width does not change. If you attempt to keep your feet under your hips, ie, with a constant horizontal leg separation directly under your hips, then the track separation WILL change. It will be wide at the apex and narrow at transition, but all the while your legs will be separated hip width apart.

This is due to the inclination of the body relative to the surface of the snow which causes vertical separation and increased ski track width.

:
post #23 of 29
That is right BTS.

If the feet are always under the hips, (constant horizontal separtion) when you tilt the skier, only the inside ski will be in contact with the snow. For the outside ski to maintain contact, the outside leg is either lengthened or the inside leg is flexed. In either case, this *vertical movement* causes the distance between the feet and therefore the track width to increase.

There are many threads quoting this relationship on this site.

Heluvaskier has a thread that included pictures of this relationship. Physicsman has a spreadsheet that draws tracks and shows edge angles given various relationships, like constant track width or constant horizontal separation.

Hope this helps.
post #24 of 29
I always thought horizontal was level with the horizon. Maybe we need another term, like perpendicular to the spine.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
You haven't seen anything yet.

Just to clarify something I read here earlier




The only way to maintain a shoe shufling choo choo track, constant track width situation if there is reasonable speed, is to be prepared to have your legs change their horizantal seperation through phases of the turn. They would be cowboy wide at transition and very close together at apex. Thus, if your goal is to maintain a constant track width, the feet CAN NOT remain constantly hip width.




correct. Your hip width does not change. If you attempt to keep your feet under your hips, ie, with a constant horizontal leg separation directly under your hips, then the track separation WILL change. It will be wide at the apex and narrow at transition, but all the while your legs will be separated hip width apart.

This is due to the inclination of the body relative to the surface of the snow which causes vertical separation and increased ski track width.

:
I get it, the tracks get wider but the hips don't. (I speak for many women when I say thank goodness!) Thanks
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I always thought horizontal was level with the horizon. Maybe we need another term, like perpendicular to the spine.
That is interesting to note Ghost, because many people make the mistake of assuming that horizontal separation is always horizontal (ie - ski track width), when in actuality the model only works when the components are considered in relation to the skier. I find that perpendicular to the lower leg is the best way to describe horizontal separation. If we were to use anything in the upper body the model would not hold up because of the separation of movements between the upper and lower body. The upper body is rarely in line with what the legs are doing.

A more important thing to note - is that (IMO) the concept of the separation components that go into forming what most call "stance" is one that is best to be understood by instructors and coaches, but not necessarily taught word-for-word to students. As long as the students are using a natural width between their knees (as dictated by their body shape/type/size) AND are using sufficient vertical separation throughout their turns (not too much and not too little, but only what is needed for the task they are performing), there is little need to force any changes in in the skiers stance.

As for the video that accompanied concepts - how many here have seen it other than ssh, Alpental Angle, and rouge skier? Bob B maybe?

Later

GREG
post #27 of 29
Not sure if it was a video or just a powerpoint slide show we had two winters ago. Andy and Kurt did an indoor presentation for the whole school as part of our training passport. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to question both of them after the class. What I got from that was the idea that the technical is only part of the whole. The artistic performance component being the rest. The paper is meant to give us direction while leaving us enough room to explore the concepts and come to some conclusions on our own as we explore both the technical and the artistic.
post #28 of 29
There is a video of footage of D teamers performing 2005 concepts with some titles overlaid over the top of it explaining the concepts in a few places. It was never released to the public.
post #29 of 29
I saw that video at a dryland clinic last fall. My former ski school director, and his brother who are both examiners were in the film. I'll see if I can find his email address, and ask him how to get a copy of the DVD.
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