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Beyond level 3 - Page 2

post #31 of 42
Sept 20, 2007

Hi theRusty:

Thanks for your lengthy and comprehensive reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Although each organization does certification slightly different
:Say it isn't so. Say that all Level Xs are created equal:.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Do some pros take advantage of the system and rest on their laurels? Yes. Do the hard working pros more than make up for the slackers? My opinion is yes.
Definitely agree. Ski Pros from my home mountain have one of the highest participation numbers at ProJam(?), the PSIA-e event usually held at Killington at the beginning of the season. During the season they take Ski School clinics religiously, whenever a clinic is offered and they are free from coaching duties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
It's important to note that a large percentage of certified pros only teach part time. The costs of recertifying on a regular basis would make certification economically prohibitive.
How about a less formal procedure, call it Determination, where every ten years, PSIA-e sends Examiners to ski, talk, with Coaches for half a day, to "Determine" whether they have kept current with their skiing as well as coaching skills, in a relaxed atmosphere. The cost of this Determination event, ideally should be zero as a measure of appreciation for 10 years of meritorious service and more importantly for 10 years of $100+ dues. If not, the cost should be kept to a minimum. I suggest this Event could be less demanding for two reasons: (a) All Coaches have been certified and this event is only to determine whether a coach has been keeping current (b) I assume Examiners are able to pass/fail most Coaches just by watching them skate up to the lift for skiing skills. Most of the time should be spent talking, discussing and making sure the coach has kept current on his/her coaching skills. A 10 year period is generous enough to accommodate fluctuations in individual Coach's life, such as having a baby, getting married etc, and allow him/her enough time to make up for any lapses and not be too much of an intrusion. Half day Events would allow the Examiner to perform two Determination Events per day thus helping to keep costs down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
I've seen this program go through many changes and feel that it is on the right track, even if that means losing my position. In the long run, the DCL program will become a greater benefit to our membership.
Hi JohnC:

Thanks for your comments and input as well.

Finally, having asked so much from you Ski Pros, I would like to reflect on my own my professional "Determination". This is "Determined" by (a) client feedback and management evaluation (b) the 3-7 professional journal articles which I contribute to and are published each year. (c) Once or twice each year, various professional journals ask me to peer review manuscripts submitted by other professionals in my field, to determine the manuscript's publication viability. Again, my apologies for intruding on this most interesting thread/topic.

Cheers,

CP
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
. . in the east, where people like me sit behind a desk to make a living, something else to shoot for and keep us progressing would be a valuable product. Even if maybe it's not recognized by national.
I'm definitely going to try to be an examiner, and I have a full time job. I don't see any reason why you can't . . . As someone said, there are a bunch of examiners who have jobs sitting behind desks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
I don't care about another pin (Titanium?).
Platnium . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
As mentioned, and I agree 100%, it does become political once you start talking about being on the Ed Staff.
Really? Maybe I'm not far enough into it, and I'd imagine that there are some politics involved, but "it's all political" seems like something that people say when they aren't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
I'm not aware of the current standards for full cert but level 4 would need to boost switch 360s off kickers, 540s in the pipe for example.
Nice! I'm all set then!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
One day two seasons age, I watched some PSIA-e Educational Staff Coaches giving clincis. A clinic leader was taking a class down this run which had real tight, ugly, mishappen bumps. I stood on the side to watch, hoping to get some pointers. The clinic leader did not ski down this run in a manner which would bring credit to PSIA at an Educational Staff Member level. After observing this, I wondered to myself why the leader chose to coach on this run. Another clinic leader was leading a class down a short steep run. I asked my daughter to stop, observe and learn. To my disappointment, this individual performed this run at most at a proficiency which many Level IIs at my mountain would be able to ski or even surpass. Originally, I thought that these Educational Staff Members were Examiners. Later on, I found out that some were and some were Division Clinic Leaders. One of the Coaches was an older guy, the other was not. But it seemed that both of them had not worked on keeping their skiing at a level which would be above what one would expect from a Level III.
Why does someone always whip out the "I saw this guy, and he sucked" card? Everybody has crappy days on snow. And even on non-crappy days, you can always find something to pick apart (SEE: Every MA thread on this board). Just relax, chief. Give those guys a break.

Or post some video of yourself skiing for MA and see how that makes you feel.
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
Just to clarify, there are 7 regions in PSIA-E. To my knowledge, there is no quota for the number of DCL's who will be successful. I'm one of the "old guy" DCL's (class of '92) who has been very active and will most likely re-test for a position on the new team. Yes, its true. Some of the current team members have been utilized a lot, others not so much. It mostly has to do with where you are located, the availability of other Ed Staff, AND your expertise at leading certain clinics.
I've seen this program go through many changes and feel that it is on the right track, even if that means losing my position. In the long run, the DCL program will become a greater benefit to our membership.
Great to here from you JohnC! If I choose to take the DCL exam it will be an honor standing next to you. As a little grasshopper(and old one though)I have much to learn.If I don't make the cut at least I will walk away with the knowledge of some of the most talented ski pros of today!

T
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2 View Post
Why does someone always whip out the "I saw this guy, and he sucked" card? Everybody has crappy days on snow. And even on non-crappy days, you can always find something to pick apart (SEE: Every MA thread on this board). Just relax, chief. Give those guys a break.

Or post some video of yourself skiing for MA and see how that makes you feel.
Sept 20, 2007

Hi Mattchuck2:

Like I said at the top of my initial post, I am not a Ski Pro. I will be also be the first to admit that my skiing sucks. However, I was watching an official PSIA-e event, where an Education Staff Coach, wearing an official PSIA-e Education Staff Jacket, was coaching other Ski Pros on "the correct way" to navigate that trail. Under this circumstance, I think that it is reasonable to hold this Coach up to a higher level of scrutiny. If he/she was skiing on his/her own time wearing his/her own jacket, I would not have batted an eye. At my home mountain, the Ski School implements a Jacket restriction on all Ski Pros. This restriction is only lifted after a Ski Pro has demonstrated a certain level of proficiency to the Technical Staff. I know Ski Pros who change jackets when they are out free skiing and are trying out terrain/technique which they don't feel comfortable with. They do this out of a sense of not wanting to embarrass the jacket. Shouldn't an Education Staff Coaches hold him/herself to this standard? If he/she was having an off day, he/she could have selected a less difficult trail to hold the event.

Everytime I go out skiing, I subject myself to any MA which others might want to perform. I feel pretty good. I'm out having fun, not being paid to coach other Ski Pros.

Cheers,

CP
post #35 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2 View Post
I'm definitely going to try to be an examiner, and I have a full time job. I don't see any reason why you can't . . . As someone said, there are a bunch of examiners who have jobs sitting behind desks.
I don't believe the statement you are referring to. There a lot of examiners that are part-time examiners, but they are full time instructors. Then there are the full-time traveling examiners. Sure, there may be a couple of part time instructors that made examiner, but not many.

I like the "I don't see any reason why you can't" comment. That would be because you don't see my 2 year old triplets, and their 6 year old sister, and the fact that I'd like to stay married and in my kid's lives. Just leaving my wife at home alone with 4 kids from 6am until 8pm on Saturdays (after being at work all week and leaving her with the kids all week) is pretty stressful on a marriage. On top of that, down here in the mid atlantic, you don't get the training opportunities you do up north. So to train for Ed Staff tryouts requires multiple day travel on a somewhat regular basis. So basically, I've resigned myself to the fact that if I want to make Ed Staff, I'm going to have to simply maintain my current abilities until my kids are much older, when I can spend more time on the snow.

Good luck on your quest.
post #36 of 42
Hey John, hold in there.
It wont be too long till skiing changes from "dad's self-indulgence" to a quality family time!


(Last year my son started skking terrain I'd choose if I was by myself -- what a change. They'll be teenagers before you know it.)
post #37 of 42
IMO, the last thing we need is another level of certification. The key question in certification is what is the purpose? IMO, the purpose is to inform customers of how well-prepared their instructors are. since most instructors work for ski areas, it would not bein the ski areas' best interest to have a fourthlevel of certification with perhaps as few as 20% of the current level 3's qualified to meet the standard. It might be better instead to add skill accreditations, like children's specialist or park and pipe specialist. That way customers who want the highest level cert would get satisfaction, while instructors would have a reason to continue to add skills. If you are a level 3 and want a substantial addiitional challenge, I suggest trying to add certs in snowboarding or adaptive teaching. Further, anyone could try out for educational staff. Perhaps we need to make it possible for ed staff and other teams to keep some symbol of their achievement, even after they no longer make competitive cut-offs. In the end our objective should be to serve the ski areas, and to that end we should all improve our lessons constantly, and also we should find ways to convnce customers that they have recieved a great product.
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
I don't believe the statement you are referring to. There a lot of examiners that are part-time examiners, but they are full time instructors. Then there are the full-time traveling examiners. Sure, there may be a couple of part time instructors that made examiner, but not many.
I've known at least 3 examiners and a current Dev Teamer who were had full time jobs, and I think most of the DCL are part-timers as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post
IMO, the last thing we need is another level of certification. The key question in certification is what is the purpose? IMO, the purpose is to inform customers of how well-prepared their instructors are. since most instructors work for ski areas, it would not bein the ski areas' best interest to have a fourthlevel of certification with perhaps as few as 20% of the current level 3's qualified to meet the standard. It might be better instead to add skill accreditations, like children's specialist or park and pipe specialist. That way customers who want the highest level cert would get satisfaction, while instructors would have a reason to continue to add skills. If you are a level 3 and want a substantial addiitional challenge, I suggest trying to add certs in snowboarding or adaptive teaching. Further, anyone could try out for educational staff. Perhaps we need to make it possible for ed staff and other teams to keep some symbol of their achievement, even after they no longer make competitive cut-offs. In the end our objective should be to serve the ski areas, and to that end we should all improve our lessons constantly, and also we should find ways to convnce customers that they have recieved a great product.
+1
That's almost exactly what's happening in Eastern right now.

BK
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
I like the "I don't see any reason why you can't" comment. That would be because you don't see my 2 year old triplets, and their 6 year old sister, and the fact that I'd like to stay married and in my kid's lives. Just leaving my wife at home alone with 4 kids from 6am until 8pm on Saturdays (after being at work all week and leaving her with the kids all week) is pretty stressful on a marriage.
Perhaps I should have said, I don't see any reason why one can't.

Maybe my comment is biased from the perspective of a 27 year old with no wife, but I think if you were really serious about it, you could find the time. Whitetail is open at night. For me, personally, I wouldn't want to spend my grandfathering years telling my grandkids how good I could've been if only I'd been able to get out on the hill a little more.

But like I said, that's from the perspective of a 27 year old with no wife or kids.
post #40 of 42
DCL is a job. It should feed into examiner and Tech team programs if that persons interest and talent lead them there. PSIA-NW offers training directors (TD Training) additional clinic opportunities in conjunction with DCL training. This is a very popular way that LIII's get exposure to and train alongside DCL's. DCL's are reevaluated every two years and those failing to show progress or recieve unfavorable feedback from clinician evaluations are restricted in the clinics assigned to them. PSIA-W has an Ed-Core for Level III instructors who meet the qualifications to teach educational clinics to member schools and for special accreditations. Some ski schools recognize DCL as Level IV in their pay structure but that is not the industry standard.
post #41 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
Say that all Level Xs are created equal
....
How about a less formal procedure, call it Determination,
....
Yo CP,

If you look at the certifications meaning level 1 = teaching beginners, 2= intermediates and 3= all levels, then all level X's are created equal. There, I said it. There's a lot of history behind why we have divisions in PSIA and why each division has it's own standards. Having slightly different standards has pros and cons.

We can go even less formal than determination. Certified pros have to take on snow clinics at least every other season. The clinic leaders know whether or not the pro is at least close to meeting the standard. These people could be weeded out if we wanted to without any official testing.
post #42 of 42
FYI to non-PSIA members.
Maintaining certification is dependant on the attendance of educational events sponsored by PSIA, all day clinics=1credit 1yr, night clinic=1/2 credit, 2-3 day events (Symposium, Convention, National Acedemy, Divisional Academy, Race Camps) =2 credits2yrs. Exams, Childrens/ Senior specialist I+II accredations =2 credits 2yrs. Member schools can hire Divisional staff members to lead educational credit clinics. For these clinics the Clinic Leader must send a class roster and the completed Clinician Evaluations to the regional office. If a member fails to show up or participate in a clinic they will not get their educational credit fulfilled. A member with lapsed dues or lapsed educational credit could be dropped from the active instructor roster and have to pay an administrative fee, back dues, and attend an appropriate educational event to be reinstated. The maximum Ed credits an instructor can carry over is 2 credits (otherwise I'd be carrying over 8). I don't mind, I attend on an average of 2-4 events annually not including events I work. I enjoy attending Ed events, it is a chance to rekindle old aquaintances, make new friends, meet the new up and coming talent (they may be my boss someday) and maybe learn a thing or two.
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